[tptacek]

We should see perfectly eye to eye on this, because you're who I learned this from. At any rate: that's what I meant by the word "society".

When someone composes an appeal to the tranquil monoculturalism of Japan, the thing they should be immediately confronted with is the fierce racism that makes up the core of that culture. Cultures change; Japan's inevitably will get to where ours is today (hopefully we'll keep making it hard for them to completely catch up).

[patio11]

If you would (sensibly) like to dispute Japan's tranquil monoculturalism on a message board thread or elsewhere, a better approach to take is "Japan is often described as a monocultural country but it is not." This is true, novel, and gives you the opportunity to drop e.g. a citation for Sugitomo's An Introduction to Japanese Society, which is a really excellent academic text, or Making Common Sense of Japan, which is sadly out of print but a fantastic book qua book. (30 second example: Japan has large ethnic minorities like e.g. Koreans whose experience is often materially different than that of people who are ethnically Japanese; the discourse of Japanese monoculturalism margainalizes their experience and, for bonus points, makes their lives materially worse. Japan has religious minorities; you might sensibly predict life is difficult for them; you might sensibly predict this implies that e.g. no Japanese PMs come from religious minorities; you got one of those two predictions correct.)

I'd politely double down on encouraging you to not attempt to win this argument by saying "Japan actually is a monoculture and that culture's core is racism." People will believe you. This is materially less true than the not-a-monoculture argument and, separate from the truth of it, it is internally and externally a dangerous thing to have be believed.

[tptacek]

I literally don't understand what you are trying to say. Again: you are the person who informed me of this --- in fact, almost the exact words I used in my earlier comment have come out of your mouth, multiple times.

Can you give me a single sentence that you think is closer to the truth, without examples or citations to books?

Would the sentence "Japan is way way more racist than America" work? If not, I'm going to express further surprise, because that is a sentence you have used before.

[patio11]

I'm splitting hairs, perhaps unnecessarily so, about exact word choice used to communicate the ground facts. We agree about the ground facts.

>> Would the sentence "Japan is way way more racist than America" work? If not, I'm going to express further surprise, because that is a sentence you have used before.

Is this a quote or a paraphrase? I'd be mildly surprised if I said those exact words and did not do an immediate verbal retraction. I have recollection of writing e.g. "[I]s racism a bigger problem in Japan than e.g. in the United States? Yes."

Consider it from the perspective of a government bureaucrat who has the brief Protect Japan From Threats. In the formulation "Japan is a fiercely racist society", and his goal is to protect Japan from threats, anyone opposing racism is a threat. In the formulation "Racism is a big problem in Japan", his goal can plausibly be "Reduce racism in Japan", much like it could be "Reduce poverty in Japan" or "Reduce unemployment in Japan." I like making/keeping space available for people to embrace that second interpretation.

[tptacek]

You said those exact words, laughing, walking on Wells Street in Chicago.

I take your meaning about being careful not to lock in an unsatisfactory status quo with rhetoric. I think you know that's not what I'm trying to do.

Here, the connection between the comment I was replying to and my summary about Japanese society is particularly powerful. That commenter is selecting an attribute of Japanese society for praise that you and I know is deeply problematic. I know you agree with me: importing the cultural attribute that commenter is referring to would be a tragedy.

[patio11]

I apologize and retract any comments made on Wells Street or elsewhere that were carelessly drafted.

I know you're not trying to lock in the status quo. If I had a guess, you're trying to win a message board debate? Which is something I'm sort of onboard with. So, just as a tactical discussion between two message board debaters who are approximately on the same side here, you've got tactical option #1 "Grant the untrue premise of an argument which you believe is damaging and then attempt to litigate an implication of it in a fashion which, if your opponent was savvier, he'd be saying feeds the Thiel narrative and which, independently of message board debates, is a net negative thing to have believed in the world" or tactical option #2 "Counter the untrue premise by destroying it in detail with actual facts; score lots of easy Internet debate points with specificity and style."

[tptacek]

I've read this three times now and I'm still not clear what you're trying to say.

Since you're retracting your Wells Street comment, could you add some additional value and maybe explain to people not privy to our conversations why I might believe that Japan is far more racist than the US?

[patio11]

Obligatory correction: Sugimoto.

[ash]

> Japan has religious minorities; you might sensibly predict life is difficult for them; you might sensibly predict this implies that e.g. no Japanese PMs come from religious minorities; you got one of those two predictions correct.

Which of those two predictions are correct?

[patio11]

Being a religious minority in Japan can be challenging in a variety of ways; at least 3 Japanese PMs have been Christian (Catholic x2 Baptist X1 off top of head). This is a deep topic of narrow interest; ask me over drinks sometime if you want the full geekiness about it.

[tptacek]

You'll note that I did not dispute whether Japan was intolerant of other religions. How many PMs of Japan have been anything other than ethnic Japanese?

[areyousure]

It is possible we may see a half-Taiwanese female PM in the future: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renh%C5%8D

[RCortex]

I disagree, while anecdotal I've seen a number of street interviews done by youtubers. I do know that japan's last "miss japan" was biracial

[sangnoir]

The evidence you cite is hardly rigorous: my guess is the youtubers were Japanophiles interviewing in Metro areas.

> I do know that japan's last "miss japan" was biracial

Yes, and America doesn't have any race issues since the current president is biracial.

[RCortex]

Edit window has expired, I went to check, the few in particular were born and raised in japan. I'm debating whether or not to give these channels more exposure at the moment, they're not particularly large and won't be ready for what will happen.

[RCortex]

America cannot be described as "fiercely racist" either, only parts of it. Which is what my comment was disagreeing with. Not "no race issues"

[tptacek]

No region of America reaches the level of racism that is acceptable and ingrained in Japanese society. Rural working class white towns don't have many minorities in them, but they have some, and their children aren't sent to separate schools.

I believe Trump to be deeply racist, and I recognize a fiercely racist strain of his followers. But those people also make great television. I think Trump's followers are willing to abide racism, because the alternative is a status quo that promises hopelessness for their children. I don't condone racism and I think the mainstream middle-aged Trump base will eventually be ashamed to tell their grandchildren they supported Trump --- but that's because they have a moral core that does not accept racism.

I do not believe you can make the same generalization about Japanese society --- or about many other societies in the world! It's a sign of the health of our culture that we so openly confront our racism.