[urza]

I am faving this comment. Huxley was a true visionary.

However I dont agree with the "...new kind of non-violent totalitarianism..." Our democracies are non-violent only if you obey. Otherwise they use violence and force to lock you up. Most people in prisons are there for victimless crimes like drugs. That is not a non-violent system in my opinion.

[erikbye]

It is often said that Huxley's Brave New World prediction was more accurate than Orwell's 1984, but Orwell actually got the boot-stomping-your-face prediction right: even peaceful protests are met with full riot gear and ends being peaceful as soon as that first baton-swing hits someone's skull. Police murdering unarmed citizens with their arms raised. The mass imprisonment of citizens who's only committed what most people consider a minor offense.

[eevilspock]

Aldous Huxley vs George Orwell:

http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/huxley-or...

(The creator, Stuart McMillen, felt compelled to remove it from his own website. He explains: http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/blog/cartoon-blog/amusing-ours...)

[cortesoft]

Are you saying that peaceful protests in the US are met with baton-swings to the skull? That seems veritably untrue; there have been a large number of protests recently that have not ended in any violence.

[zanny]

The Dakota Pipeline protestors have been getting maced and tear gassed this past week. There are also reports of protestors being locked in dog cages[1].

[1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/11/0...

[cortesoft]

Yes, but there have been many other protests that did NOT end in violence.

[mzw_mzw]

The Dakota Pipeline protesters were actually shooting at cops, and committed millions of dollars worth of arson.

[zanny]

The Sioux tribe and other protestors claim he was a plant by the oil company to intentionally turn public opinion against the protestors[1].

[1]: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dakota-access-pipeline-s...

That, and the other incidences of protestors using firearms is something anyone managing a protest of this scale cannot control. As long as the leadership involved condemns the gun violence, and the protestors do what they can to stop people from escalating the situation, they cannot be themselves in the wrong.

It is a very common tactic to plant radicals in peaceful protests who will use violence as an attempt to ruin the reputation of the movement, mainly by distraction - "oh, someone shot at the police, they are all violent monstrous scum now, and nobody should listen to their grievances anymore" was used constantly during the occupy protests, and many of those offenders were later found to be plants by either private or even police agencies to break up the protests and destroy their message.

[rixed]

Sadly you have to have been a protester at least once to know that, otherwise you just cannot believe how prevalent (and effective) this tactic is.

[mzw_mzw]

I wonder if you were this generous towards the Bundy Ranch protesters.

[humanrebar]

> even peaceful protests are met with full riot gear and ends being peaceful as soon as that first baton-swing hits someone's skull

...except the police officers murdered in Dallas this year didn't wear riot gear on purpose and the violence started when a sniper started shooting officers. Some crazy person executed two officers in Iowa three days ago.

I'm not advocating riot gear, but there are holes in your narrative.

[TazeTSchnitzel]

A police officer or two killed says nothing about police brutality.

[humanrebar]

It says a lot actually. Police officers are humans who want to go home to their kids. Hence the riot gear. We can blame them for being too fearful, but we can also recognize that they have reasons to be afraid.

These reasons don't fit into "because The Man" narratives without some explanation.

[TazeTSchnitzel]

Humans who are vastly over-prepared for the threat they face.

They're not fighting a war, and acting like they are only increases popular resentment.

How does can an officer covered head to toe in riot gear, carrying military equipment, jumping out of an armored vehicle, engage with the community?

[ahartman00]

"A police officer or two killed" ...

"Humans who are vastly over-prepared for the threat they face"

Again, these are people who want to go home to their families.

"acting like they are only increases popular resentment"

Valid point. But the riot gear itself was a reaction to throwing stones or molotov cocktails. Sniper fire appears to be a reaction to the riot gear...

"How does can an officer covered head to toe in riot gear, carrying military equipment, jumping out of an armored vehicle, engage with the community?"

Valid point. Lets ask a similar question. How can a protester throwing stones or shooting people engage with the institutions they are trying to change?

[diyorgasms]

The police act almost as an occupying force in some communities. It does not surprise me in the few instances where they are resisted like they are an occupying force.

[wtbob]

> even peaceful protests are met with full riot gear and ends being peaceful as soon as that first baton-swing hits someone's skull.

Is it more likely that a police baton ends the peace, or a protester's stone? Is riot gear offensive in nature, or do the police wear it to defend themselves from violent attack?

> Police murdering unarmed citizens with their arms raised.

While that has certainly happened, you are referring to Michael Brown, who did not, in fact, have his arms raised and was, in fact, beating the police officer who shot him.

> The mass imprisonment of citizens who's only committed what most people consider a minor offense.

I suspect you blame Drug Prohibition (and I agree that it should end immediately), but that's not actually true: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/releasing-drug-offenders-...

Looking at what people actually go to prison for, it often seems like stuff we'd want to send people to prison for: murder, assault, theft, rape, fraud. Maybe we might look at why Americans commit so much murder, assault, theft, rape and fraud?

[dmoy]

I was assuming he was talking about Philando Castile, who was shot to death while putting his hands up.

[wtbob]

That is definitely a much greyer case at the moment; I'm looking forward to the results of the investigation. It definitely sounds bad.

[nathanvanfleet]

Not to mention if you are just protesting the wrong thing, you get arrested, pepper sprayed or worse. And somehow the media coverage is way less too.

[zanny]

Like the Dakota Access Pipeline protest right now. No mainstream network talks about it at prime time, despite it probably being the most significant US national political event right now next to the email leaks. Which they also ignore, beyond claiming they are Russia's fault.

[mzw_mzw]

> Like the Dakota Access Pipeline protest right now.

The one where they were shooting at cops, you mean? True, that part didn't get a lot of coverage.

[tptacek]

Most people in prison are not there for victimless crimes. This is well studied, and what you just said is a canard.

Ranked, reasons for incarcerations go:

1. Violent crime

2. Property crime

3. Everything else

Where "violent crime" is comprised of those crimes we all agree are violent --- particularly: domestic violence, which accounts for a plurality of all incarcerations in major metro areas.

The overwhelming majority of incarcerated felons victimized somebody else. It's also worth considering that the majority of those incarcerated for property crimes victimized those people in society least able to absorb the harm: rich white people live in low-crime neighborhoods with 2x the police coverage.

[zanny]

Depends on your definition of "overwhelming" 1 in 5 convicts are in prison for drug related offenses[1]. Almost four hundred thousand US citizens behind bars for plant byproduct possession or distribution is heinous. There are around 320k prisoners for property crime, by comparison, so no, nonviolent drug offenses are #2 in terms of incarceration blocks, though the numbers are close, and violent offenses are over twice drug offenses.

[1] http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2016.html

[tptacek]

It is not my argument that because drugs account for only 15% of incarcerations, our drug policy is OK.

[SFJulie]

euh... Don't confuse Republics and democracies.

Letting the people vote is a not an equivalent statement to let the people rules.

Condorcet has shown how voting systems can be unfair, and a quick look to every elected assembly from the G20 is showing a clear non representation of the demography of the people in the assemblies.

We do not live under democratic systems, neither was USA in 1861. These are Republics. And Plato was firmly convinced that democracies were bad. After all he was sponsored by the wealthy ones that hated the people to have power.

[mseebach]

Thats a fairly irrelevant objection. Both the NYT, Huxley and the GP are referring to the system still in place in the US and Europe today (and so were Churchill in the "worst system, except for all the others that has been tried" quote), whether correctly identified as 'democracy' or not.

[curried_haskell]

Republic and democracy are not mutually exclusive... I think you are confused if you think they are. According to Wikipedia, "It is a constitutional republic and representative democracy."

Perhaps it's less of a democracy then we think it is, but it's not wrong to call the US a democracy.

[urza]

Fair point, you are of course right.

However I used the word in the way how it is used nowadays by public. I am from Europe and people here will tell you we have "democracies".

[eli_gottlieb]

I mean, of course we don't actually have democracy. That's the problem.

[rayiner]

I mean that's verifiably not true if you look at the statistics. A majority of prisoners are not in for drug crimes. The ones that are are overwhelmingly in for drug trafficking, which is violent (selling something that physically hurts people).

You can argue that consent should make the act legal, but that doesn't make it non-violent.

[pessimizer]

> drug trafficking, which is violent (selling something that physically hurts people).

Only if selling sugar, rifles or skateboards is violent.

[douche]

Distributors of those legal products are rarely gunning each other down over the monopoly on distribution on a particular street corner. Driving it underground and making it illegal forces people to return to older, more traditional forms of conflict resolution...

[ycmbntrthrwaway]

Sometimes they are driven to the internet where they use superior conflict resolution mechanisms, such as arbitration and other mechanisms that work in the absence of violence.

[rayiner]

All of those things have non-violent uses much more important than their violent ones. Cigarettes are a better analogy--I think there is definitely a case to be made that is a violent activity.

[narrowrail]

What is the non-violent use of a rifle that is important? I sold pot in college in the 90s, and there was no violence. Perhaps it is the ilegalization of various plant materials that causes violence in the distribution process?

[rayiner]

Hunting, pest control, etc. Pot isn't that harmful, but contrary to popular belief most people are not in prison for possessing or even distributing pot. Heroin, meth, etc. definitely are harmful and addictive, and destroy lives. Selling them would be violent even if those products were legal (like cigarettes).

[ericHosick]

> Heroin, meth, etc. definitely are harmful and addictive, and destroy lives. Selling them would be violent...

Unless you can personally claim ownership of those people, among other things you're claiming ownership* of, there is no aggression (initiation of violence) taken upon your person or things when someone is destroying their life.

If you can personally claim ownership of those people, and society as a whole, then you are correct and the selling of the drugs would be an act of aggression towards yourself.

* The act of withholding something from others.

[OvidNaso]

And most opiate addicts (heroin) get hooked from opiates supplied by their violent doctor and local pharmacies.

[narrowrail]

Hunting and pest control are examples of non-violence? Is that your argument?

[rasengan]

Beat me to it! ;)