[elicash]

I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone. They're not going backwards because they think they're right, not because they think they're wrong but don't want to admit it.

And the reason they aren't cutting prices is likely because they're more profitable with prices as they are, not because they're afraid of admitting a mistake.

[rsync]

"I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone. They're not going backwards because they think they're right, not because they think they're wrong but don't want to admit it."

I believe that the iphone is by far the best executed mobile phone platform and the best hardware - and has been from day one.

However, I have never purchased or used an iphone because of my stubborn indignation over the lack of plain old USB for charging.

Contrary to all expectation and experience, everyone in the world got together on one little thing - establishing the global standard for USB charging - and the world was actually a very slightly better place. And apple shat all over that, and continues to do so, in order to make (on average) an extra $10 for every iphone sold.

So fuck that and fuck their iphone.

[stouset]

You had me up until the "$10 for every phone sold" bit. Do you seriously believe Apple is happy to willingly sabotage sales of their tens-of-billions cash cow to make a few tens of millions on accessories?

They stuck with 30-pin because it was something their customer base had already bought into, and they didn't want to force a change. They went with Lightning because, let's be honest, micro-USB is shit — every micro-USB device I've owned has had the connector fail within two years. Lightning can handle 12W of power, micro-USB 9W. Lightning is reversible. Lightning has no moving parts on the connector, prone to breaking (or worse) grabbing onto your $700 device with a death grip and bring nigh-unremovable.

It would be great if they switched now to USB-C. They're clearly in the works on that, but didn't want to make a connector change on their phones after only two revs.

[ricksplat]

In my recollection a micro-USB has never failed. If it has failed it wasn't an issue because I've a heap of them lying around and could just grab another one.

I have had a number of lightning connectors fail on me. They're designed to fail. Pressure-held copper edge-connectors for devices went out with the Commodore 64's user port.

The fact that it is reversible is convenient but hardly worthy of consideration as a feature alongside "ubiquity" "cost" and "durability".

The old iPhone connector had it's limitations but it was established and really quite solid in my experience. Micro USB perhaps has limited features technically, and is ugly, but I don't believe the advantages that Apple presents for lightning outweigh the drawbacks.

As an interface it has a couple of niche use-cases that it fulfils but it is a step backwards in terms of connector design and in fact has a "worse" connector than the two other interfaces it purports to improve upon.

Props to Apple for padding out their profit margin and all that but they can absolutely go and shite if they think I'm going to swallow their "better connector" bullshit.

And they expect me to use it instead of a headphones jack now as well!

[JohnTHaller]

Quick Charge 2.0 via microUSB can throw a lot more power down the wire and charges nice and quickly. Plus that same wire can plug into a USB port on anything and charge.

I'm always surprised by folks talking about failing microUSB ports. The microUSB port on my old G2 (HTC Desire Z) still works fine as does the miniUSB port on my G1 (HTC Dream).

[stouset]

> I'm always surprised by folks talking about failing microUSB ports. The microUSB port on my old G2 (HTC Desire Z) still works fine as does the miniUSB port on my G1 (HTC Dream).

I'm always surprised by folks talking about their non-failing micro-USB ports, as if that somehow discounts other people's devices that have failed.

[JohnTHaller]

I don't doubt that some fail. But so many who have had them fail make it seem like the ports are absurdly fragile and fail for everyone all the time.

[dpark]

I don't understand the obsession with USB charging. This makes no sense at all to me. How would my life be materially better if my phone charged over USB? My last phone charged over USB and I can't say it felt better.

At this point, you might be tempted to claim that I would be able to use the same cables as other devices. To this, I'll point to the ongoing switch to USB-C and note that's you're buying new cables anyway.

Micro USB was a shitty plug. USB-C is better, but you can actually thank Apple for that, because it's a reaction to the Lightning plug.

[ng12]

Come visit my company gym, we have 20+ perfectly good treadmills that all have outdated iPhone chargers. The best part about micro USB was that it was absolutely ubiquitous. If my phone was dying at a friend's place or at my neighborhood coffee shop chances are I could charge my phone.

My least favorite thing about my 5x is that it's USB-C. I regret upgrading before USB-C became more commonplace.

[dpark]

I don't know how this is an issue for Apple. If those treadmills were micro USB, they'd be trending rapidly toward obsolescence anyway.

I'll note that almost everyone who complains about lightning seems to not be an Apple user. Apple users seem fine with the horror of not sharing cables with Android devices. Apple users are also pretty happy that random hotels and whatnot have docks for their phones.

[ng12]

> I don't know how this is an issue for Apple

Oh, it's absolutely not. Apple makes a killing selling adapters. It's the users who get screwed.

[stouset]

Apple makes hundreds of billions from iPhone sales. They make probably tens of millions from cables.

Suggesting they'd knowingly sabotage #1 for #2 is absurd.

[dpark]

I don't know. I bought a lightning cable for my office a week ago for maybe $6. A quick search on Amazon shows an equivalent USB-C cable is actually more if I want to buy from a company with a name I recognize.

[FireBeyond]

"If those treadmills were micro USB, they'd be trending rapidly toward obsolescence anyway."

Where "trending towards obsolescence" means "has realistically at least three years of non-negligible use for Micro USB", versus "was replaced by its manufacturer just over four years ago" (September 2012).

I'm yet to see gym equipment (a niche example) with Lightning, it's only 30 pin connectors.

[stouset]

Oh, FFS. 30-pin was around for what, 15-odd years? You're blaming them for literally nothing more than "the plug changing" because it just happened to be within the past few years.

If they'd gone with micro-USB, you would have the exact same complaint two or three years from now. That micro-USB devices still have 2 or 3 more years left of ubiquity is just a function of this exact moment in time, and you could have said that three years ago for 30-pin too.

[treehau5]

Exactly. Could you imagine buying a home if the electrical outlet wasn't standardized? (In the US). Just ask the rest of the world how frustrating it is when every country has their own plug.

[thomasfoster96]

Homes tend to have a longer lifespan than phones.

[treehau5]

True, but the people living in them don't. People in the US move, and they move a lot.

Please use the downvote button for comments that are not relevant to the discussion, not as the "I disagree" button. We aren't reddit. My point is factual, 26 million Americans move every year. The challenges and hassels would be comparable if we had different plugs for all our appliances and electronics are analogous to the problems we have with different standards for charging ports on our cell phones, just a larger scale.

[7952]

The best approach is to just have USB sockets and let the user supply the cable.

[ryanhuff]

I don't care about USB charging. What I do care about is not having to carry an awful dongle to listen to music. Been there, done that. And, I care about not having to charge my headphones before I listen to music. People might say I should just leave the dongle on my headphones. I lived through that already with an Android phone years ago, and it sucked.

[dpark]

That's a perfectly valid criticism. I think ditching the headphone jack, while having little effect on me personally, isn't a great move. At the same time, Apple has a long history of ditching compatibility early (floppy drive, cd drive, vga, etc) and with generally good effect long term, so I'm not sure that they actually made the wrong decision here.

[nocman]

Except that (as I recall) the floppy drive was completely obsolete when they did that, so almost no one cared. And the CD drive was not very painful either. The story is completely different for the headphone jack. It is not in the least obsolete, and it being missing is a huge pain for a lot of people.

It was a completely bonehead move on Apple's part IMHO. I know they had their reasons for doing it, but I still think it was a big mistake.

[wcummings]

My blackberry has micro AND mini usb. I live like a king. A king who doesn't carry a charger but whose phone is kept charged.

[fenomas]

> never purchased or used an iphone because of my stubborn indignation over the lack of plain old USB for charging.

I reached that conclusion over the "can't install apps without the manufacturer's permission" thing. I've always been surprised more developers didn't feel the same way.

[NickPollard]

For what it's worth this was (and is) my red line that prevents me from ever buying an iPhone. That's one person who agrees with you at least!

[lostlogin]

It's a technical crowd here - you can install apps without using the App Store and it's not particularly difficult either.

[khedoros1]

Well, I can (or I could on a personal one, as opposed to the work-supplied one I carry). I like being able to install software from outside of an app store without modifying my firmware, worrying about updating my device, losing my warranty, opening up large security holes, etc.

Reaching outside of the walled garden isn't hard, but there are more things to consider compared to installing an apk on Android.

[fenomas]

It's an ideological complaint, not a technical one.

Not being able to install apps is a nuisance; not being able to distribute apps for others to install is a deal-breaker, but the main thing is that I'm afraid of our world becoming a place where walled gardens are the typical model for consumer electronics.

[snowwrestler]

Meanwhile, everyone is complaining that Apple just released a laptop that standardizes on USB for all IO and charging.

[theptip]

That's because magsafe is magical, and they removed all the other ports. I have heard nobody complain about the charging situation on macbooks; GP's point is specifically about cell phones.

[Osmium]

> That's because magsafe is magical, and they removed all the other ports.

In fairness, there are two huge new benefits to their new approach:

* You can charge on either the left or the right side. This reduces cable strain.

* If the cable breaks, you can swap it for another (cheap) USB-C cable, without having to buy another power brick.

There's an argument against Magsafe too: laptops are lighter now, so the magnets would have to be weaker to still work reliably, and thus also have more accidental disconnections (this is irritating). I'm not completely sold on this argument, but you can buy third-party USB-C Magsafe-like adaptors if it's really important to you.

For me, who's had several frayed chargers over the years due to cable strain, I really like their new approach.

(Note: there's a legitimate argument against Apple here too... I've heard that the reason Magsafe chargers are so susceptible to fraying is because they don't use PVC, and instead use a more 'environmentally-friendly' plastic, which is much weaker. They could still use more substantial strain relief regardless, but I'd guess they have aesthetic arguments against that, which is a silly reason for something so important. I'm not sure how much truth there is to this however.)

[grzm]

"There's an argument against Magsafe too: laptops are lighter now, so the magnets would have to be weaker to still work reliably, and thus also have more accidental disconnections (this is irritating). I'm not completely sold on this argument, but you can buy third-party USB-C Magsafe-like adaptors if it's really important to you."

Yeah, that is a pretty weak argument :) The MagSafe works not by working (directly) against the strength of the magnet, but by the lever action of the connector eccentrically against the body. You can try this yourself by trying to pull the MagSafe away straight on compared to at a slight angle. Also, existing MagSafe is used with MBA, which are lighter than the new MBP. If that were really a problem, we'd already be seeing it.

I do hope that there are good third-party MagSafe replacements out there. The reviews of the Griffin BreakSafe are mixed. https://www.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway-Chromeboo...

Or maybe Apple will come out with one in the future. I would love to know more about how Apple arrived at the decision to not provide some sort of MagSafe equivalent feature.

[stouset]

Also regarding Magsafe, I'm trying to remember the last time I kicked a cable that would have otherwise sent my laptop flying and… I can't.

I think the difference now is that laptop batteries last a hell of a lot longer than they used to. So many people have a fixed charging location (e.g., a desk) and spend a lot less time in some place with a cable precariously stretched across the room to reach a couch or w/e.

Just a personal theory, maybe not true for others.

[grzm]

"Also regarding Magsafe, I'm trying to remember the last time I kicked a cable that would have otherwise sent my laptop flying and… I can't."

I can't either. A this point it's more the convenience of being able to pick up and go without needing to unplug the machine, and one I'll miss when I eventually get a new machine. That said, it's human nature not to remember things that don't happen.

[YuriNiyazov]

No kids or pets, clearly.

[snowwrestler]

Apple's theory on removing MagSafe is that their laptops now provide enough working time, and charge fast enough, that it is rare that people will need to work while plugged in. This is clearly influenced by their experience with iPhone and iPad. It's also why they felt fine with silly-looking charge orientations for their mouse and pencil.

Is it wrong? We'll see. I think a lot of people work with their laptops plugged in as a matter of habit rather than necessity. That doesn't make it wrong, though.

[stouset]

People haven't complained about it because they grade Apple on a curve.

Apple doesn't use a shitty micro-USB plug? End of the world. Laptop manufacturers use a cornucopia of power plugs that change basically all the time? Crickets.

[Mithaldu]

Nobody's complaining about that, but about the removal of all other options.

And well, many many other problems with that new thing that are entirely unrelated to USB.

[natermer]

Good to know they are following Chromebook's lead.

[wvenable]

The lightening connector is so much better than micro-USB that it's really hard to fault them for that. But I imagine even the iPhone will go USB-C in the next iteration.

[dpark]

I can't imagine that happening. They'd piss off all the customers that bought lightning accessories, lose control over the connector, and get what in return?

[massysett]

Apple's long history of port and drive removal demonstrates that pissing off customers is not a prime concern. Lost licensing revenue might bother them though.

[dpark]

They seem happy to do this if they think there is value. I'm not sure what the value of USB-C is on the iPhone. The negatives are pretty obvious. The positive mostly seems to be that they can share cables with Android phones, which I cannot imagine is something execs at Apple care about.

Someone else raised an interesting point about docks. The lightning connection is designed to be strong enough to support a phone in a doc. I'm pretty sure this is not a design consideration for USB-C given how no one seems to care about Android docks.

[chimeracoder]

> I'm not sure what the value of USB-C is on the iPhone.

Ridiculously fast charging, plus the ability to use the same charger for both your laptop and your phone.

Being able to consolidate all the chargers I own is an unbelievably exciting promise. That's only an option for me because I use an Android phone.

[wvenable]

You can hold your phone upside down connected to the lightning connector -- it's really quite impressive. USB connectors are much more fiddly.

The advantage of USB-C isn't so much in physical connection but the actual capabilities of the interface. Lightning isn't very powerful by comparison.

[Klathmon]

Not only that but the fact that people are buying lightning headphones for the current gen.

They are in a shitty place right now. They can't go USB-c without pissing off a good amount of their customers, but they can stick with lightening forever either (it's already starting to show its age WRT transfer speeds and other abilities)

[SysArchitect]

They could upgrade lightning to support USB-3... Lightning doesn't specify the USB protocol.

[wvenable]

I assume that's why they haven't already switched but they just releases Macbooks with nothing but USB-C connectors so I imagine the debate must be on internally at Apple.

[BrandonY]

Compatibility with their new MacBook Pros, which have four USB C adapters and nothing else.

[stouset]

For basically forever, we've had USB devices with two separate types of prong on each end. How is USB-C to Lightning any different?

[dpark]

I think most of the arguments here are from some hypothetical future where every device on the planet has standardized on USB-C except the iPhone.

[Gerardo1]

I disagree, because it doesn't work on anything other than Apple products. I would much rather have micro-USB (or any other widely-adopted standard).

[sliverstorm]

I suspect a lot of people have come to take USB for granted, forgetting about the mess it resolved. (Or, they weren't around at the time)

[nickthemagicman]

THIS SO MUCH!! YOURE NOT ALONE!!!

Additionally, Why do I HAVE to use Itunes to sync the phone? I just want to grab a photo off of it.. where's my USB mode?

[ebrewste]

This doesn't change your overall argument, but Image Capture on the Mac will let you get your pictures without Photos or Itunes. I'm DONE with Photos and had to figure this out. It's not a great app, but it is simple.

[toomuchtodo]

What made you be done with Photos? Just curious before I move 100GBs of Flickr photos into it.

[nickthemagicman]

Yeah but PDFs? Text files? Software? Entire Movies? MP3 Albums?

It's all just data in USB mode!

[astrange]

iPhones speak PTP (the USB camera protocol) as long as the screen is unlocked. You can use any photo app you want.

[myfinalaccount]

If you just want a few photos, it's much much easier to Airdrop them, or email them, or add them to dropbox, or message them. There's no need to plug in for that.

[khedoros1]

Assuming you've got an internet connection available for both of your devices, sure. As an example: I've got a work-supplied iPhone that I use for photos of office activities, sometimes. All the file-sharing sites are blocked on the work network, and I don't have a Mac to deal use an Apple-specific transfer protocol with.

Thankfully, the comment you replied to is moot as well. I plug my phone into my machine, unlock the screen, and pull pictures off it all the time.

Still, when putting music on it, I'm left wishing that I had the option to use something like gtkpod, like I used to use with my iPod, back in the day.

[camillomiller]

Well, how can you "believe that the iphone is by far the best executed mobile phone platform and the best hardware", and subsequently declare that you hate them for not using a subpar standard when compared to their flawlessly engineered proprietary one?

[michaelt]

When it comes to what side of the road we drive on, one side might be marginally better than the other - but the major benefits come from everyone agreeing to use the same side, regardless of what side that is.

[hollander]

Easy, for him the iphone connector is a showstopper - no matter how good the rest of the platform actually is.

[zeven7]

What makes Apple's better? Genuine question; I haven't looked into this at all.

[FussyZeus]

Reversibility is the clearest benefit to the end user. Also it's a much more durable connector than most, the cable end is just a flat piece of metal as opposed to having pins and whatnot.

[derefr]

Re: durability, one thing most people don't think about is that modern Lightning docks are effectively just Lightning connectors: https://9to5mac.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/apple-lightning-...

The stress of holding up the entire mass of the connected device (that can be as large as an iPad Pro!) is on the connector; and the stress of being held up by that connector is on the tiny part of the device that grips it. That'd be impossible with a USB connector (even USB-C), on both sides.

[FussyZeus]

I was surprised the Macbook didn't have any Lightning ports to be honest. I figured they would use that for direct device connection.

As it stands if you have a brand new Macbook Pro and iPhone 7 you can't connect the two without an adapter, which is just stupid.

[sssilver]

The connector also has pretty much phenomenal build quality, compared to every other whatever USB cable shipped with whatever device.

[dexterdog]

It makes Apple more money and keeps hate between iPhone and Android users because they can't share chargers.

[swiley]

I don't "happily" buy phones now and I doubt most people do. Most phones are this bizarre compromise between the political wills of some corporation (or designer) and the needs of the user.

[rsync]

I very happily bought the Neptune Pine[1] which is a full featured telephone the size of a watch (I removed the watchband and threw it away). Love it.

[1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/neptune/neptune-pine-sm...

[dghughes]

You've become Derek Zoolander. http://i.imgur.com/eOXfo95.jpg

[hollander]

It's sold with short sleeves.

[askafriend]

I love my iPhone 7. It's my favorite computing device that I've ever bought. 100% serious.

[Kluny]

What does it for you? Are there any particular features, or is it just the "everythingness" of it?

[sssilver]

As a convert who used to be an ardent Android supporter, I've learned a very important lesson after switching. It's not always about the numbers. In fact it's never about the numbers. You can't quantify sheer quality. You can't quantify how something makes you feel. I understand this can be easily retorted by "Well I get that feel from my Samsung Galaxy N, it's totally subjective", but I think that's just being dishonest. I've seen people mention that they're considering switching back to Android after the headphone jack thing, or switching to a PC laptop after the touchbar thing. For me simply touching the surface of ANY premium laptop currently on the market is enough to realize that Apple is light years ahead in terms of how they engineer their devices to feel. Simple things like opening a lid. Using the trackpad. The force touch. How the ringer switch clicks into place. All of it screams "quality". Not like 15% higher quality, but like light years higher quality. It's my experience anyway. It's like -- yes you can take the best mechanical Breitling and ask what does it do that the average Casio ProTrek does not? And there may be not a good answer for that in terms of numbers. But just take both in your hands, and try to objectively say -- which device you intuitively want to interact with more? Which one attracts you with some inexplicable magic? Which one your fingers are craving to touch and understand? Imagine having that feeling every day with a daily device. Imagine having that feeling as the norm. How could you opt in for something less, despite the numbers?

[khedoros1]

I carry an iPhone issued by my employer and a personal Android phone. You're absolutely correct about the feel of the device itself, smoothness of the software, etc. It's a very pleasant device to use, and I do use it every day, sometimes in situations where I have the choice between the Apple and the LG.

But none of that matters. If I bought a personal iPhone, I'd miss a few things. I like installing software that isn't on the Google store (specifically, F-Droid, Amazon, and Humble Bundle, in my case). I like having a little Linux system on my phone, and being able to remote into it. I like using scp to get files on and off, torrenting on the phone, being able to expand the device's memory when my needs change, and plugging it in like a giant USB key if I'm somewhere that my laptop doesn't get wifi.

Tellingly, I just bought a new Android phone that took some pretty blatant design cues from Apple's hardware. I think the choice mirrors the choice of which device I use in different situations, in a way.

My first preference would be a desktop computer: powerful CPU+GPU, comfortable inputs, very nice outputs (multiple large monitors, a nice speaker system), and enough storage for everything I want, with room to spare. My next would be a laptop; it's not as nice, but it's certainly easier to carry into the living room. Past that, my phone isn't as capable, but it's easier to put in my pocket...so I'm stuck with whichever tools fits my requirements in my current situation.

[askafriend]

This hits the nail on the head in terms of how I think about Apple. They've so consistently set a bar that others are not able to hit, that at some level there just isn't any competition at all in some areas. Some of these things are very very important. Like all of the incredible accessibility work that they do. This level of detail of caring goes unappreciated all the time but is felt every day for many many people.

[Kluny]

The trackpads are what do it for me. I like using a trackpad for a mouse. It's not that their trackpads are the best, it's that every other trackpad in existence is unusably bad.

[gnashville]

> It's not always about the numbers. In fact it's never about the numbers.

I've always found it interesting that the Android/iOS debate seems to go only one way. My handful of Android friends have tried convert with some new feature that does x and y over the years, yet I've never found myself trying to convince them to make the opposite switch. I think your quote sums that up pretty nicely.

[Kluny]

Yeah, I get you. It's why I'm sticking with my 2012 Macbook pro and honestly considering getting another Pro if it ever dies, despite all the downgrades they've made.

[glhaynes]

I feel like every time I see somebody with a new phone they're excited about it and want to show it off. And those that don't have a new phone grumble about how they still have to wait another year before they can upgrade.

[swiley]

Oh don't get me wrong, they're always full of exciting gimmicks that are fun for a month or so. I guess some people get distracted by all that enough to get very excited but if you ask them what they actually use/care about (and they answer honestly) it's all "boring" things like battery life, email, IM etc.

[superuser2]

I have almost $1000 invested in over-the-ear Sennheisers and custom fitted in-ear Shures.

I don't think I'm going back to the audiologist to spend more hundreds of dollars a second pair that only works with iPhones and not my Mac or any pro audio equipment. Or depending on any battery device (like wireless headphones) that can't be plugged in while operating. Or having a device in my pocket that I can't plug in to a real PA system to test. Or paying what I currently pay for headphones that are iOS XOR Android.

Apple may be right for the millions who only ever use the included headphones, but in a world with compelling iOS alternatives that still have headphone jacks, I'm not throwing away the rest of my equipment or carrying adapters everywhere.

[askafriend]

Just plug the adapter into the end of your headphone jack and leave it there. It's a female adapter, so it can just hang off of your existing 3.5mm jack. You make it sound far more annoying than it actually is.

[bhandziuk]

And get one adapter for each set of headphones. And if you then use those headphones with nay other device and unplug the adapter just hope you don't set it somewhere and forget it.

It adds too many unnecessary steps.

[squeaky-clean]

Ugh, I lose a 1/8" to 1/4" adapter for my headphones at least once a month. I've bought extra and try to keep one in any device I have with a 1/4" port, and yet still they manage to come out and get lost. It's easy and cheap to order a dozen of those. It's not going to be cheap to order a dozen lightning->analog adapters.

[askafriend]

That's completely fair. However that's a corner case for most people. I think the general use case is that people have routines in their day to day and fit these devices into their predictable routines.

Adapters suck for unpredictable situations but those aren't common enough and Apple knows this.

[pritambaral]

> However that's a corner case for most people.

Using a pair of headphones with multiple devices? At least between phone and laptop? That's not a corner case, even though Apple seems to think so by skipping out on a Lightning port on the Macs after putting out lightning headphones.

[ebrewste]

I consider the unpredictable case the several to many years it takes to upgrade all the devices between my wife and me. It probably took 3 years to get rid of all the 30 pin devices in our house. I don't see why it will be any better switching away from 1/8".

[superuser2]

Exactly. It's a doable workaround, but doesn't make sense when "just buy a Pixel instead" is an option.

[JustSomeNobody]

You make it sound only slightly less annoying, TBH.

[malthaus]

Why do you feed your expensive headphones with the sub-par audio from an iPhone A/D converter (probably listening to lossy compressed MP3 in the first place)?

As long as you do that, the pain of having a (free) dongle attached to it kind of fades in comparison.

[Ar-Curunir]

Maybe it's convenient to have high quality headphones for high quality listening, but then also be able to use that with other devices?

[zeveb]

> I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone.

Is there a site we can legally use to register that bet? I'd be interested in taking it.

I honestly don't think that the headphone jack will ever go away. Wireless audio is like wireless internet, in that it's better than nothing but worse than something with wires and a stable connexion.

I daresay you're correct that Apple think they're right, but … I think they're wrong. The question is, can they remain irrational longer than the rest of the market can be rational? I _think_, given Android's market success, that they ultimately can't: Apple have made too many mistakes in too short a timespan.

But only time will tell.

[shliachtx]

> Is there a site we can legally use to register that bet? I'd be interested in taking it.

http://longbets.org. Also the site Warren Buffet used to bet that he could beat hedge funds with the S&P 500.

[zeveb]

That looks pretty cool, but requires one use one's real name. Any anonymous, legal long-term bet site? Sorry to raise the bar …

[qmalzp]

I was seriously considering switching to iPhone for my next phone after my S.O. had a terrible experience with Google customer support, but my car doesn't have Bluetooth. I don't plan on getting a new car for at least another 5 years, so if I want to listen to music in my car, iPhone is ruled out.

[zimpenfish]

If it has a 3.5mm input socket, there are many Bluetooth to 3.5mm receivers that would work (like this TaoTronics TT-BA08 I'm using right now).

Obviously if you don't have a 3.5mm jack, that doesn't help.

[__david__]

Why? My car doesn't have Bluetooth and my iPhone 7 works just fine, and charges while listening to music and everything. There are already headphone/charging splitters you can get on amazon made just for the 7 (though I'm still using the same setup as my 6).

[hollander]

You don't have to buy a new car to get a different radio. And if your car has a 3,5mm jacket (here we go! ;-), you could use the Chromecast Audio to cast to the car radio with your new iphone without that 3,5mm jacket.

You need a local wifi network for the CC, so you have to setup a wifi hotspot with your phone. Then you make the connection. The downside is that you cannot use car stereo buttons to skip to the next song. And you probably need double usb-charging for the CC and the phone. That's quite a lot of work to setup each and every drive, but for longer drives it might be a good option.

[SysArchitect]

This still has the issue of not being able to use your car controls to control the music, but:

https://www.amazon.com/Antec-Portable-Bluetooth-Receiver-Hea...

Pair this with your phone, and plug it into power. When your car turns on, it powers on, pairs with your phone, and spits audio out over 3.5mm to the car stereo.

Comes with a 3.5mm male -> 3.5mm male plug for this purpose.

[lloeki]

Guess what, I switched, only I bought a 6s instead of a 7. It's not like you could pretend the 6s is a useless slab overnight.

[mhurron]

The SE still exists with a headphone jack and it doesn't look like an iPad held up to your head.

[dpark]

If you're going to leave a cable in your car (I'm assuming that's the plan) just leave a lightning to 3.5mm cable.

[zimpenfish]

Which the iPhone 7 handily comes with (and clones are readily available on Amazon although YMMV as to their quality, obvs.)

[krisoft]

Maybe longbets? http://longbets.org/

I think they are legal, because the winnings doesn't go to the participants, but to a charity of the winners choosing.

[wpietri]

Exactly correct! Long ago I wrote the LongBets software and am still involved in the Long Now, so I'm happy to facilitate registering a bet between people on this topic; just email me.

At this point we've been up for 14 years. If we're good enough for Warren Buffet's million-dollar bet [1], I'd say we can handle this bet too.

[1] http://longbets.org/362/

[zeveb]

Any way to use a pseudonym? I'm happy to throw $200 bucks into the pot.

[wpietri]

If you can find a counterparty and that's the only way to get the bet done, I'm glad to ask. But the theory of Long Bets is as a registry for accountable predictions. Accountability is tied to identity. So my guess is that they'd say yes for a well-known pseudonym with a body of work, like Lewis Carroll or Voltaire, but would say no for a throwaway name.

[chaosfox]

>I honestly don't think that the headphone jack will ever go away.

regardless of the claim, you are just setting yourself up for failure when you make unbound claims like that, nothing lasts forever.

[kayoone]

I have been using a good pair of bluetooth headphones for over a year and am perfectly happy with them, Audio quality is never an issue with a2dp. Likewise after getting a decent 802.11ac router that provides stable 5GHz Wifi way faster than what my 100Mbps internet connection can provide, I haven't used wired ethernet for ages, apart from wiring my NAS to the router. 10 years is a long time, very sure the Audio Jack will be gone by then or a rarity like Vinyl today.

[dpark]

> Wireless audio is like wireless internet, in that it's better than nothing but worse than something with wires and a stable connexion

It depends on what factors you value. Wired beats wireless for reliability and speed. It gets crushed for convenience, though.

My home wireless is really spotty. I want to run Ethernet to several locations... in order to install more access points.

[aembleton]

> Is there a site we can legally use to register that bet? I'd be interested in taking it.

I don't know of any website that let you place a bet like that, but you could probably place it at a bookmakers.

[zeven7]

  > Wireless audio is like wireless internet, in
  > that it's better than nothing but worse than
  > something with wires and a stable connexion.

From my perspective, wired internet has effectively gone away. I haven't plugged anything other than a wireless router into a physical ethernet connection in years.

[Grishnakh]

You obviously don't work in any kind of office. Wired Ethernet is still the norm for good reason: having hundreds or thousands of PCs in one building fighting over WiFi spectrum would be incredibly stupid and inefficient and slow.

[zeven7]

In a startup now. Worked at a 800 person tech company 4 years ago. All laptops, all wireless (at least on my team -- I'm sure there were people that were plugged in somewhere).

Worked at a much larger tech company 1 year ago. Had a desktop that was plugged in, so there's that. Guess I overstated (though I can't say I actually did plug it in myself). Also had a laptop that I worked on over wireless without problems. There were 5k-10k people in that office.

Still I do almost everything over wireless.

[dexterdog]

It's getting problematic in the home as well.

[vonklaus]

> I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack,

I bet within a decade we will all happily buy autonomous cars without a steering wheel. This is because in a decade, battery life, software, connectivity and manufacturing experience will provide a large benefit and will be normalized.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that this will provide a 10x better experience. Here is what Apple is doing:

* The Computer is the Hub for all devices

* the cloud is the Hub

* the phone is the Hub

That's fine. Except that if my phone is using bluetooth to be constantly connected to my headphons & iwatch, as well as occasionally my computer; AND it can power my headphones it really dosn't matter if you give me 2x the previous phones battery I am running 4x the amount of devices off it. Apple needed to deliver a phone that lasts >3 days and headphones that aren't a chopped up earbud that can max out at 2 hours.

the iphone 7s will probably be awesome, this is the bridge model as Walt Mossberg put it, and it doesn't seem realistic to even consider buying it.

[bogomipz]

"I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone"

Sure, absolutely when Rezence” or “PMA,” or whatever the wireless charging standard becomes is ubiquitous. However we don't have that today, no will we have it in 18-24 months, the general duration of a customer's contractual obligation to a carrier and phone model.

And for people that need to type and talk at the same time, sometimes for hours at stretch - for maintenance window or outages or even just long conference calls, not being able to accessboth a headphone jack and a power simultaneously on their phones is a real deal breaker.

I don't think the OP is necessarily pooh-poohing change but rather being pragmatic and practical for the immediate term.

[Mikho]

I can believe that the 3.5 jack will be removed, but only to be replaced with more convenient open and not proprietary standard--analog standard. I can live with USB-C, that, btw, already has analog audio implemented, when it de facto becomes industry standard for audio output. Just hope they solve simultaneous charging with headphones plugged. Two USB-Cs may be.

But definitely it is not going to be proprietary lightning digital audio port that requires external DAC and licensing.

[akhilcacharya]

Not when the existing jack is 1) a proprietary standard that does not work with any other device 2) A port that doesn't allow one to charge and use audio at the same time.

Something like a USB-C for everything could be doable - but as far as I know, USB-C ports are thicker than 3.5mm jacks.

[7952]

I have been buying bluetooth earbuds for years. Cables seem so cumbersome in comparison. If only they could sort out latency on video I would be 100℅ sold.

[404error]

By eliminating the headphone jack didn't they just create another revenue source? My understanding is that they get paid a per unit licensing fee by anyone who creates/sells an adapter. I was under the impression this was the reason they removed the jack.

[mixedCase]

>I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack,

No, sorry. I actually enjoy the music I listen to.

[kj01a]

>willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack

Are you saying that because you think there will be a better alternative to the 3.5mm jack a decade from now? What does that have to do with what Apple is doing now?

[syntheticnature]

I figure it's being said (as someone who both agrees with the statement and is irritated at headphone jack removal) be cause the trend has tilted that way. Apple has merely joined other manufacturers in demonstrating that headphone jack users are actually a niche market.

I suppose I realized this when I saw folks at a former employer's manufacturing department all buying $100 BT headphones... because that meant they could set their phone down and not worry about yanking it off the lab bench.

[Can_Not]

> because that meant they could set their phone down

Now instead they have to worry about:

- charging stations

- how the headphones identify themselves to the computer

- skype and/or Windows arbitrarily refusing to acknowledge them as headphones during calls

- DRM

- more than 20$ on average price increase

- Security and privacy

[syntheticnature]

They took the tradeoff. Mind you, a number of these things Did Not Matter to them -- they weren't pairing them with the computers, just their phones. I said manufacturing -- they had a bunch of old 'beater' desktops that were over five years old for running device programmers and the like.

It would likely have taken me a full workday to get them up to speed on any security/privacy issues.

As for DRM, not only do I think they wouldn't care so long as their music played, but I'm with everyone who sees no difference between a remote DAC and a local one. (Heck, these folks in manufacturing could easily have disassembled the headphones and put in an analog output at the appropriate point, they had the relevant rework skills -- and that would not trip any phone-internal tamper sensors.)

[melling]

There's already an alternative: USB-C

Apple wasn't the first company to ditch it, or even the second...

http://www.androidcentral.com/moto-z-doesnt-have-headphone-j...

[zingmars]

That's not really a better alternative, now is it.

Now your headphones must come with all the electronics required for USB-C and their own seperate DACs. This means they're going to be slightly more expensive without any actual improvement over your 3.5mm headphones. Not to mention all of those threats of DRM and whatnot looming around. So with that in mind, why would I possibly want to make the move to USB-C?

[SysArchitect]

Why are there threats of DRM with the DAC moved to the cable instead of the DAC sitting inside the phone (where arguably it has more control over the DAC than if it is sitting in-line on a cable)?

[u02sgb]

Because you remove the "analogue hole" in the DRM scheme of the 3.5mm jack.

[duaneb]

It forgot to improve on the 3.5mm jack!

But thank god I have a thinner phone, I was really having issues sliding it under doors.

[archagon]

Terrible idea. Your USB-C headphones will become obsolete when the next USB standard inevitably comes out. Meanwhile, 3.5mm will still be kicking.

[elicash]

It had to do with the comment I was replying to.

[rahrahrah]

> I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone.

I'll take that bet. A decade, so lets say, we bet for $100,000? Is that Ok with you?

[scottmf]

It's an unfair bet as you have (almost) complete control of the outcome.

How about he wins if >50% of smartphones sold in the U.S. in 2026 lack 3.5mm headphone ports.

I'd personally bet $10k against you/OP on this.

[rahrahrah]

No no, don't change the goalposts. The thing that I'm calling the parent on, is the prediction that I will like having no headphone ports. I have no idea what's going to happen with US smartphones sales in 2026, so I won't make a bet on that. I do know that I WILL NOT like not having a headphone port.

[syntheticnature]

Ah, but that's not what their bet was... the bet was that you will happily buy a smartphone without said headphone port -- which I expect will happen because you won't be able to buy one any other way now that it's been demonstrated that it can be eliminated. You might not be happy about that aspect, but still be happy with your new phone as a whole, as you adapt to the lack of any option on that front.

[rahrahrah]

But I won't be happy with my new phone as a whole. You're saying I will, but I won't. You don't know what's inside my mind.

[scottmf]

Did you feel the same about floppy drives?

[DashRattlesnake]

> It's an unfair bet as you have (almost) complete control of the outcome.

That's the other guy's fault, though, because he (foolishly) offered a bet where the taker has "(almost) complete control of the outcome":

>>> I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone.

Might as well call him on it.

[scottmf]

That wasn't really the spirit of the offered bet. All this pedantry is taking the fun out of it.

Now I actually do believe the OP will "happily" buy a phone without a headphone port. But not if he has a financial incentive to change his behavior.

[DashRattlesnake]

> Now I actually do believe the OP will "happily" buy a phone without a headphone port.

Honestly, the OP might resign himself to it, but I'll doubt he'll be happy about it. It's not like headphones are currently connected with obsolete digital interfaces (e.g. RS232). Headphones are, by their very nature, analog, and making their connection digital just makes integration harder.

[scottmf]

The headphone industry will look a lot different in ten years.

The wireless standard used by headphones (possibly not BT) will have enough bandwidth to no longer be the bottleneck in wireless audio quality. And more importantly they'll never need to be "charged".

Who's going to miss cables?