[paradite]

While I agree with your advice, there is one important point that you missed.

The fact that Chinese and Indian students tend to form cliques or enclaves, is a perfectly normal and natural behavior, because of the sheer large number of students in the same community.

Do not mistake this as "Chinese and Indians are not good at mingling with the locals because of their mindset and culture." It is mostly just because their social circle is large enough to sustain itself in a typical overseas community. In fact, it requires much more effort for them to get out of the comfort zone than students from countries that do not have so many students studying overseas. Another easy way to see it is that, they literally have a "larger comfort zone" to jump out of.

To put it into perspective, consider a US college where there is only a few Chinese or Indian students, chances are they will naturally interact more with locals.

Then consider a group of exchange students in an Asia university, chances are they are going to be mingling around within themselves all day with minimal interactions with locals.

So my point is, do not judge them negatively because of this, and do put in some extra effort in reaching out to them if you are kind enough and want to change the status quo.

[mahyarm]

Sticking to your language group is the easy thing to do, we realize that very well. But we also know its not the best thing to do, like eating a lot of ice cream.

I've seen family members who integrate and others who treat the new place as enclave and half learn english. The ones who do integrate did much better in life. It really is a waste, short term and long term.

[drieddust]

I am an Indian in UK. Culture of heavy drinking and partying even in age group well past 30 is a real hindrance for me. If you don't drink or want to stop at a few, you are not really a sport.

Many Indian face similar predicament.

[noir_lord]

I'm white British, born here and I don't drink - definitely get the stranger in a strange land feeling sometimes.

[minipci1321]

A close family member faced the same issue when moved to UK for work. Being an athlete since the childhood (== not having a strong skill to handle alcohol + saving all time for training), he tried to avoid as much as he could - to the point where his manager made a "friendly remark" about how he should participate.

I think he now more or less secretly switches to juice after first couple of glasses (and I guess counts minutes till the end).

[_glass]

I feel you. I came back to Europe, but staying so long in an Asian country changed me already. Now it's sometimes really hard to reintegrate. Also because of the cultural stigma that was attached. And I am already thinking in terms of that cultural stigma.

[narutouzumaki]

Very interesting! Would you mind sharing in which way you became more 'Asian' in your values, manners or socialising? Usually I only hear about the reverse, e.g. Japanese going to the US or Europe and coming back more 'Western' in their ways.

[_glass]

One of the main points is really the alcohol. As all of my friends were not drinking, I also stopped to drink so much, that amounts to just on very special occasions. Also the aspect of friendliness. What I have to recalculate the reactions (much more aggressive, not really harmonic) of my surroundings. And so on. I could write much more, especially with family and so on. But I am definitely now a hybrid.

[kkjuuio888]

Just pin it on some medical issue. Or just "Doctors' orders".

[harry8]

That is a stunningly racist thing to say. "All English are dunks so I'm forced to avoid them." Think if a visitor to India made a comment as wrong and silly as that about Indian people. British people will brush it off and it won't hurt them, while the converse may not be true it's the same sin and you should think on it a little bit.

[thisone]

There is a drinking culture in the UK.

There is the expectation that you drink too unless you are visibly muslim.

And with some people, there is the feeling that if you aren't drinking with them then they can't trust you fully.

In my first two years here i ran into all of that.

Then i said fuck it and just started telling people honestly why i wasn't going out drinking with them 'i really don't like to drink much, it makes me really sleepy and not much fun. I don't like being around drunk people when i'm sober, and besides all that i'm not spending £120 for a hotel so i have to drive.'

After repeating that a few times most people understood. Some never did.

Those people who never did understand or accept it, i don't work with them any longer.

[tetromino_]

Setting aside the odd use of the term "racist" (counting Englishmen a distinct race sounds very 19th century)...

> "All English are dunks so I'm forced to avoid them."

That's not what drieddust said at all. His (her) problem isn't with the English being drunk or not - it's with the English expecting him (her) to drink if he wanted to be part of their in-group. Which is a reasonable complaint.

[harry8]

Taking any nationality as a race is stupid. The whole notion of race is stupid. And racisim is now impossible because race doesn't exist. It's a shorthand wherever it is used. Read culturalist if you prefer.

There are a large number of teatotallers in the UK. There are large numbers of people who don't like to drink much and don't drink often in the UK. There are people who like to drink often to excess. Rain is wet, sugar is sweet...

It is difficult to find a group of friends when in a new country. I've heard expats claim Indians don't accept white people and scoffed similarly. I'm sorry if you haven't (yet) found a social group you like. Blaming the inhabitants of a country because of their culture, attitudes and practices for that is not something I have to treat with respect - whoever does it.

[1474295912]

> Culture of heavy drinking and partying

Nowhere does the poster imply that it's a bad thing or tend to dismiss English people as lesser mortals. It's just a matter of fact comment and is a barrier for him to socialize.

[drieddust]

Apologies if it felt like that to you. There is no judgement on my part but I do face this challenge while socializing. I enjoy drinking but my body doesn't allow me to. Next day I feel horribly dehydrated and crappy. If I want to stop, I am being told I am too stiff.

[harry8]

It is perfectly normal for people in the UK to have social lives if they don't drink at all, or not much or not often. I'm sorry you haven't found a social group whose company you enjoy. Yet. Blaming the whole country being a "drinking culture" is sloppy and lazy at best. Maybe find a social group based on a common interest that isn't alcohol. Maybe organise a social outing with the same people who enjoy the pub, but centred on an activity doing something different. Maybe lots of things. But definitely we shouldn't blame the inhabitants and their culture of a country we are visiting for our lack of optimal social success.

I've made very cruel fun of some British people in Hong Kong sprouting similar nonsense in defence of having no friends outside the expat community. They were actually better people than that and deserved to feel ashamed about it and to their credit they did. People from ones own culture will always be an easier social fit when overseas, even if you wouldn't have much in common with them at home. Overseas you have home and the fact you're finding out about the foreign culture in common - but it's pretty superficial and lazy to fall back on that as a basis for your friends exclusively. Moreover you will miss rather a lot of the benefits of being overseas in a foreign culture.

My experience of Brits is that they are not all such hopeless alcoholics so as to be utterly incapable of socialising without excessive alcohol. If your experience is different maybe you should ask yourself why that is. Maybe you're expecting someone else to do all the work of socialising for you as one suggestion? You may come up with others.

[echevil]

This is mostly just human nature. When a westerner goes to an China for either work or study, a lot of them end up doing the same thing. The culture barrier makes it very hard to really bond with locals and they hang out in bars that are popular only among westerners. They feel lonely and find China a really boring place. Most Chinese immigrants also find America boring for the same reason.

I would say people from other places usually have less of such problems mostly because the culture differences are smaller. When Chinese people goes to Japan or other Asian countries, they blend into the local culture much more easily.

On top of that, a lot of Chinese immigrants are not seeking immigration when they came here for study or work. They'll go back eventually, and what they what out of being abroad is just a degree or some work experience. What's the point of mingling with locals if that's hard thing to do and will eventually be useless?

[jpatokal]

> When Chinese people goes to Japan or other Asian countries, they blend into the local culture much more easily.

Err, no. Yes, appearancewise, some Chinese are not easily distinguishable from Japanese, although the locals can often tell each other apart based on clothing, haircut, makeup etc. But rest assured, the moment a Chinese person in Japan opens their mouth, they will be every bit as much a gaijin as a blond and blue-eyed Caucasian, if not more so since the associated stereotypes are more negative.

[patall]

You mean like a Polish guy coming to Germany, a Brit in France, a Spaniard in Switzerland or even a guy from Texas in New Hampshire. Of course there are differences and they may be much bigger in asia than in europe but still it is not comparable going from country to another and going from on continent to another.

[chillacy]

I think you're right, but imo it comes down to "what is easy vs what is right". I think traveling and mingling with locals in another country can give a valuable glimpse of another way to live, allowing the traveler to reflect upon their own culture.

[echevil]

I agree that is good, but people can travel with all kinds of purposes. Getting to know the local culture is merely one of many.

[auganov]

I attended a high school in the US where around 50% of the students were foreign. There were many people (including me) who were the only ones from their country (or one of few). Yet even amongst us the foreign-American split was still pretty obvious. We basically had our little group of foreigners, mostly Asians (they were the majority of foreign students) but white kids like me too. Like the stereotypical arrangement of high school cafeteria tables by popularity, ours were segregated by nations. There was a big Korean table, two "Amercian" tables, a Chinese table and 1 "other countries" table.

[shard]

Out of curiosity, where did you go to school? I went to a science high school in New York City, and although there were a lot of foreigners, the segregation was not really along nationality or ethnic lines, but rather along lines of interest as per a typical high school: sports, music, hobbies, etc.

[auganov]

Sorry didn't notice earlier. A mid-tier (20k$/year range) for-profit private HS in Los Angeles proper. And just to be clear, by foreigners I meant kids on student visas who had no family in the US.

[chronic6l]

> To put it into perspective, consider a US college where there is only a few Chinese or Indian students, chances are they will naturally interact more with locals.

No, they aren't. Your original premise is incorrect. Those Chinese and Indian students are going back to their dorms/apartments and watching TV shows in their own languages and communicating with friends/families back home. The number has nothing to do with it. It's all about culture.

[thenewwazoo]

You seem awfully confident in your assertions about the behaviour patterns of a demographic to which you presumably do not belong. Can you provide any independent analysis of these behaviours, or systematic investigations of them?

[paradite]

Your observations may be true, but in this case there are more than one possible explanations apart from the numbers.

First, like you said, the cultural issue makes them more reserved and less open to others. But it can also be a pure personality issue, or a mixture of both.

Secondly, it could simply be a result of some prior events, like failed attempts to overcome language barrier, unwelcoming attitudes from local students, or even discrimination in some cases. All these could contribute to such things happening, and I think it is usually a mix of factors, not just culture.

[zhemao]

> First, like you said, the cultural issue makes them more reserved and less open to others.

Except Indian and Chinese culture are not reserved at all. As the guide mentions, it is very common in China for people to socialize outside of work with their classmates or colleagues and even with their professors or supervisors. This often involves going out to eat and drink together. And when I say drink, I mean drink. It's amazing how much alcohol gets consumed in a country where acetaldehyde dehydrogenase deficiency is common. I'm not as familiar with Indian culture, but from speaking with Indian friends, I gather it's quite similar.

The issue is that Chinese and Indian international students have left behind all their social connections back home. It's not easy for anyone to start their social life from scratch. Then you add on the language barrier, and it's no wonder that they may appear unsociable.

[chillacy]

> Then you add on the language barrier, and it's no wonder that they may appear unsociable

I went to poland for only a week for a foreign language meetup, and I'm very surprised at how much more introverted I became, with nobody to speak english to. It's definitely harder to socialize in a second language.

[zhemao]

Salvatore Sanfillipo. the author of Redis, has a very good post about how he is more reserved when speaking in English as opposed to his native Italian.

http://antirez.com/news/61

[usrusr]

Is that a pattern particular to Chinese and Indian or is that just generally an effect of trivially affordable global communications? It now takes decisive effort to have your mind in the pace of physical residence. Today I could move to the opposite end of the globe and still get hung up on the petty infighting in the city council of my hometown instead of opening my eyes to my new surrounding. I don't think that it is culturally determined at all, we just happen to see more or less of it depending on plain numbers (you see more Chinese than Swedes) and different "cultural distances" that influence the extra effort required to pull the mind out of medial diaspora. But the latter is perfectly symmetric for any two cultures.

[msie]

It's really hard to socialize no matter what culture you come from. It's just human nature to seek safe environments. Also one has their priorities. Party or do well in school? I question how you can be so sure of your assertion.