[crush_xc]

This was literally the biggest issue for when I started at my first job. We had a team member who was terribly condescending and talked down to everyone but especially me. You could tell that he hated the fact that he was on a team with a junior developer and took every chance he had to made sure I knew I wasn't as good as him. It makes a terrifying environment to ask questions because who knows what kind of response you're going to get.

[southphillyman]

Maybe I have just had bad experiences but a lot of developers do this thing where they answer a question with a snarky question. Sometimes it's annoying to be asked basic questions but behaving in a condescending way lends to people not asking questions at all and not communicating issues. It doesn't matter if the person is Jr. or Sr. I've seen good capable Sr. developers miss stories because they would rather be silent and struggle trying to research and figure something out instead of asking questions due to the snarky competitive nature of the team. At my last company I became the default mentor of a non Jr. team member because his real mentor, who was also my mentor, was so condescending the guy was terrified to approach him. Having been in his shoes I had no issue repeatedly helping him get his build working or helping him understand the undocumented proprietary framework etc. A little empathy goes a long way

[Cymen]

I think it comes down to trust. In a lot of teams where the trust is poor, one can't ask a question without your competency coming into question in a subtle way: many developers will latch onto it and try to exhibit their business-specific or technical knowledge in a form of one-upmanship. So they have turned it into a competition instead of a conversation.

A good way to detect these environments is when you observe those who have been there longer not asking obvious questions. That usually means the trust issue is there. When you start asking those obvious questions, at first you get that feedback loop of slight condescension. But then others start asking questions and you often get a fruitful conversation.

Having worked outside of the startup world and in the startup world, I think this is a little more prevalent in the startup world because there is another axis besides experience involved in these conversations: how long the person has been with the startup. It's common to have an official or unofficial hierarchy based on experience but in the startup world, there is another hierarchy based on how long you have been at the startup. That additional axis means it comes up a little more in the startup world (in my experience so far).

[scrollaway]

> Maybe I have just had bad experiences but a lot of developers do this thing where they answer a question with a snarky question.

Extends far further than the workplace. A few minutes in some of the more popular IRC channels on Freenode, you'll get the same experience. It's extremely frustrating, especially seeing it happen as an outsider to communities you like.

I feel like, in the same way that power generally corrupts people, "feeling smart" can corrupt the same way, coming down to the same attitude of feeling like you have an advantage over other people. Regardless of whether you actually are smart or not.

[Gruselbauer]

On one hand, I get it. Especially the popular channels on Freenode or places like the Arch Linux forums can get swamped with people who could not care less for rtfm'ing. Ungrateful, entitled, obnoxious folk, robbing people of resources and time who're putting in work for free, at least in a lot of cases. Sucks. I usually get splendid answers from these sources because I don't even bother unless I have a specific question or error, logs to back it up maybe. Yesterday I had somebody on #Openvpn help me with an issue in three lines. Nice.

But if the snark is heavy without being warranted at all, it more than pisses me off. It reflects poorly on whatever you're representing and it's just bad communication. If all you have to offer is a lmgtfy.com Link, don't bother. Those immune to that train of thought won't, the others already have.

[onion2k]

And that means the developers will all try to fix their own mistakes without bringing issues to the wider team, leading to a worse solution to problems in general. Premadonna "10X" developers might write great code themselves, but if they're pushing the quality of everyone else's code down then the overall effect of having them on the team is a negative.

Anyone who treats someone else on the team in that way, regardless of seniority, is demonstrating that they're not really interested in the project as a whole. It takes a group of people to build something complicated, and someone who is antagonistic towards other people holds back the effort of the group. You're better off without them.

[tclancy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prima_donna

I will die on this hill.

[whamlastxmas]

Maybe he meant pre-1958 developers, in the same way we used to use "BC" as "Before Christ"

[hilop]

"Madonna" is the Italian name of Christ's mother. The singer chose her name for that reason

[rpazyaquian]

I had a similar experience at my first job. I was given a lot of access to important, core functionality like server configurations (e.g. using staging vs. production API servers and DB config), but mistakes weren't well tolerated. I've always been rather frustrated that I was given this unsupervised leeway yet judged when something inevitably went wrong - what did you expect would happen with a junior developer given master keys to all of your stuff? I still don't understand the thinking behind it.

[gaastonsr]

I've always felt this attitude towards giving trust to the new hire is a good thing. It remembers me to something I read not so long ago where a Perl core contributor makes the same thing with collaborators.

What I don't find ok is to blame a person for an error going to production. Specially when the error is caused by the lack of supervision to the new hire code (code reviews) and probably QA.

[danbolt]

As a junior, I've found a similar experience as well. Programming environments seem to have a really unprofessional attitude when it comes to this.

[cheez]

Oh his behalf, I apologize. I literally started laughing at a junior's code once but in my defense, he had spent 3 years at Amazon.

[hluska]

I'm sorry, but you have no defense. Laughing at a junior developer'a code is completely inexcusable.

Simple fact is, if you worked for me, I would have fired you for that. Junior devs are supposed to do bad things - that's why they aren't senior devs.

[bgilham]

"that's why they aren't senior devs"

Amen. I don't know about firing, but I'd definitely be having a conversation about proper mentorship. We hire juniors because they show promise, but need to learn. Being snarky and shutting them down doesn't just hurt the individual dev – it hurts the entire company.

[justin_oaks]

Firing for laughing? Did you forget the point of the article? Be kind. Don't hand out harsh punishments for mistakes. Teach instead. (Only fire if the person is immune to teaching.)

[MrMullen]

Let me relay a story about people who laugh at and mock other people's work.

My wife used to work as a copy editor at a major newspaper and worked with one of those "laugh at and make rude comments about other people's work" kind of people. The copy editing checks had to be checked by another copy editor before it was allowed to be forwarded to the layout team for placement in the news paper. How the story checkin and checkout system worked was that your submitted checks were anonymous to other team members. So, there was this one guy on copy editing team who openly mocked and call other people's work "stupid" and "idiotic". He could never say the person's name that he was talking about, but since every copy editor was in the same room, you knew he might be talking about your work. Everyone hated the guy and everyone complained about the guy. My wife would say how much everyone just hated working with the guy and he was just one of those people that made the job unpleasant.

Then layoffs came around (Newspaper in the Internet Age). When this guy was laid off, champagne bottle were opened up and people celebrated. You know when someone is bad when there is a "sorry to see you go" bar get together and they are not invited. A strange thing happened though, productivity went up because people felt better about submitting their work for final approval. Less copy editor mistakes, less stress, more learning, more openness and more engaging with other team members happend. Barriers between teams fell and even with layoffs, people felt better.

It turns out that the person who mocks other people's work, make for a crappy work environment. You can be tolerant of failures on technical levels, but failure in personal level should not be tolerated. Be pleasant to work with, or should you should be fired.

[jacalata]

hmm, seems a bit harsh. For instance if your guy had done that once and been taken to the side and told "stop, shut up, never do that again, next time you're fired" then (a) the work environment would have improved much faster and (b) he might have never done it again. Firing instantly for one harsh comment/action seems like foolishness, just like keeping a known problem person around forever (as in your story) seems like foolishness.

[caleblloyd]

Fireable offense? Software Development is a profession, it's not coding school. Junior Devs are expected to have have an education, written code before, and know the basics. If they write something so crazy that it induces a chuckle, it's probably pretty bad. By all means tell them how to fix it, but don't mask the fact that the job they are getting paid to do expects them to know how to do this.

Maybe an analogy would do better. In the Army, Soldiers go through basic training and are taught just that - the basics. Once they show up at a unit, they will have lots of questions and lots to learn. But if they show up with their name patch velcroed upside-down on their uniform, I guarantee their Sergeant is going to chuckle before they tell the Soldier to turn it right-side up.

[r_smart]

Yeah, there's an obvious lack of details in the story that should preclude judgement of the poster.

I've seen people write things like: if (true == true)

I won't be mean to you about it, but I can't promise I won't chuckle a little before explaining why that's unnecessary. If you've been working in a professional setting for 3 years and are writing code like that, then yeah, I might struggle to be empathetic.

[BinaryIdiot]

> I've seen people write things like: if (true == true)

Which, if you make that an === in JavaScript, can actually make sense in some situations :)

[tempestn]

Can you give an example? I can't think of any situation to literally write if (true === true) rather than just if (true). (If anything.)

[r_smart]

I've never waded into JavaScript, so I'll take your word for it. I've heard some...surprising...things about JavaScript, so I'm not really taken aback that this might exist.

I'm referencing a time when I was in school, and most everything was taught in Java, where that doesn't make sense. This was written by someone who was almost finished their degree and had already started at their professional job. Definitely junior, but I still feel like that's stretching the acceptable level of noobishness. That said, I have an EE degree, so maybe had to solve / reduce a lot more boolean algebra expressions than a straight CS major?

[shoarmadates]

Your comparison is apple and orange if you think a person's education in software is comparable to an army. in army, the training is real hands on. rigid. while learning how to code is never a real hands on, always partly figuring out on your own, thus each person having more various understanding/competency on how to do the job.

[savanaly]

I think you're quite possibly judging the guy too much based on a simple internet comment.

His statement could mean anything from cruelly laughing in the face of the junior dev during a face to face code review to having a quick heh under his breath from the privacy of his office at the developer's use of "if (foo === true)". Or anything in between.

[beanmunch]

Perhaps, but the "but in my defense, he had spent 3 years at Amazon" quip seems to confirm that this guy has a poor attitude.

[wott]

> I think you're quite possibly judging the guy too much based on a simple internet comment.

There are such judgements in every thread.

It's even better when it is paired with the famous "I would not hire you" (or its variation "I would fire you") although the conversation does relate to this at all, the OP has shown no intent no be hired in any company, let alone the answerer's company, and, icing on the cake, the answerer is not in a position to hire anyone.

[icebraining]

If it was a completely private laugh, seems weird that they would apologize for the previously mentioned jerk.

[sheepmullet]

Due to open office layouts there is no such thing as a private laugh.

[cheez]

Again, the guy spent 3 years at Amazon and was talking himself up big. I looked at the code and started laughing. He wasn't a junior in title, in fact, he was on his way to being senior and had his eyes on an architect position.

That is my defense and the only time I've laughed at someone's code. I guess the combination of him talking himself up big about all the amazing things he did at Amazon and the code vomit that he actually produced was too much for me.

I regret it, but he shouldn't really have been that junior after 3 years?

Though I guess I still write pretty shitty code now too on occasion.

Alright, I'll take the karma L in this case.

[rimantas]

You are an asshole if all it takes to fire someone is some laugh. Everyone shoukd be able to laugh at everyone's code. It's just a code.

[goshx]

> It's just a code.

Well, no. It is the product of someone's work. Someone who is trying to learn and should be supported and taught how to make it better and why it is not as good as it should be.

[kenrikm]

Laughing at someone's code is like laughing at someone's painting or their novel or really any other creative endeavor. It's not ok period.

[eric_h]

My team playfully makes fun of each other's code all the time. Every once in a while, someone does something stupid in code and we playfully make fun of that person, everyone on the team takes it in stride and our code is better for it.

Hell, every now and then I stumble across some idiocy in the code base and think "LOL, whoever did it this way is an idiot". git blame. "OH, hahaha, it was me, what an idiot past me was, amirite guys?" Everyone on the team takes levity about mistakes very seriously ;) It's healthy.

Mocking condescension on the other hand is a different thing entirely.

[hilop]

Self-deprecation is classy. Other-deprecation is pathetic

[whamlastxmas]

If someone's work is poor enough that a reasonable person might laugh at it, then there's nothing wrong with that. Hence the phrase "laugh at our mistakes". It doesn't mean you are a bad coder/painter, it just means you made mistakes that were a little funny and can learn from them like anyone else.

[kaikai]

There's a difference between laughing at your own mistakes and laughing at someone else's. People who are ridiculed for making mistakes are incentivized to hide their mistakes rather than learning from them.

[MrMullen]

We "laugh at our mistakes" not "laugh at other people while they are making the mistake".

[megablast]

Is it? Or is it more like laughing at someone who built a table with 3 legs and wonder why it fell over? Or someone who fixed a car but forgot to put the engine back and wonders why they can't go anywhere?

[shkkmo]

Senior devs make mistakes too. I think your tone is rather inappropriate given that the poster seems aware of the inappropriateness of his response and is apologizing for making that sort of mistake.

[crispyambulance]

While I admire the sentiment, I've NEVER seen an asshole fired for belittling juniors/co-workers.

Harsh, withering treatment is quite common not just with developers but in all technical fields. I wish things were different, but that's the reality as I've seen it.

[alyandon]

At more than one place where I've worked with at least semi-functional management, people with attitudes like that tend to get moved to special "one person" teams and then are given a long stream of crap work (or at least work they feel is beneath them) until they get bored and quit.

[southphillyman]

I've seen it once, but the guy cursed and laughed at the team architect when we had a meeting instructing us to start writing tests and adhering to a certain level of code coverage. Seeing the guy literally begging for his job after witnessing him demean and belittle people for months was kind of eye opening to me.

[vehementi]

Hopefully after you make the mistake of firing someone for laughing, your boss is kind to you (as in the OP) and lets you keep your job

[omginternets]

Trading one form of radicalism for another. That's the spirit...

[sgift]

Maybe I don't get the joke, but why is this a defense?

(I had a collegue at my last company who worked at Amazon before. His code was just fine.)

[maket]

He said "In my defense", justifying laughing at the junior dev because he (the junior dev), had 3 years of experience at Amazon.

[7Z7]

Right, which suggests that coders from Amazon generally have rubbish code, excusing the laughter.

[cableshaft]

No, it means he expected that particular person's code quality to be better than that, because he lasted at a 'Big Four' company for three years and thus should have decent coding chops, but apparently didn't, thus the incongruence made him laugh. It doesn't mean all Amazon coders are shit.

[qb45]

The original wording is ambiguous. I too read it as if OP had some issues with people coming from there.

[cheez]

I had expected better code to result. It was borderline comical.

[kenrikm]

That is completely unacceptable behavior. If you were in my company I would petition to have you fired. I hold a strict no asshole rule, life is too short to work with people who would do something like that.

[cheez]

Sounds like I wouldn't want to work with you anyway. Life isn't rainbows and unicorns.

[r_smart]

Then you're as bad as he is. Especially given that he's already acknowledged he shouldn't have done it. Indignation doesn't make you right, it just makes you stubborn.

[pmarreck]

Wheaton's Law violator here. Don't be a dick.

[enraged_camel]

Laughing at a junior's work when you are their mentor is a firable offense in my eyes.

[rimantas]

People ready to fire someone for laughing should not be allowed to work with other human beings at all, in my opinion. What's going on with this ready to be offended for wind blowing the wrong way culture and the fragile egos?

[enraged_camel]

It's not just about laughing. It's about laughing at someone's work in a derogatory manner. I hope you can tell the difference and understand the extremely negative impact the latter can have on culture.

[sheepmullet]

I hope you can understand the extremely negative impact firing someone over a simple mistake can have on culture.

Laughing in this situation is merely inappropriate. Firing someone for being inappropriate once or twice is incredibly toxic behaviour.

[enraged_camel]

I disagree. Firing assholes is never bad for culture. On the contrary, it increases morale and makes the workplace better.

Keep in mind that I don't categorize laughing at someone's work as a "simple mistake." Bugs can be simple mistakes. Offensive jokes can be simple mistakes. Laughing at someone's work however is deeply troubling behavior that actively undermines trust and discourages cooperation in the workplace. That's why you have to kill it with fire.

[cheez]

Wasn't his mentor. Just a guy reviewing code.