I don't know, what's an example of something of real spiritual value?
Based on having read a fair chunk of the earliest Buddhist records, my guess is that he would probably have ridiculed or at least discouraged this practice. Obviously anyone capable of going through with it has tremendous spiritual strength, though.
The Tao Te Ching is a book about daoism that entered into a religious practice that was already happening. It is not the only book, there is also (for example) the Yinfujing. Much teaching is also done orally.
Read any book about Daoist monks in China and you will surely come across some of their suffering and other antics. The ending of the movie "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" is a popular reference to such a suicide.
The 'classics' of Taoism you read in college (Tao te Qing, Chuangze) don't cover a LOT of what monks do in practice. I assume those are the books you are referring to when talking about 'classics'
Fair enough. I'm just curious if the suffering aspect comes from Taoism, or the various Buddhist sects which have come through the region. Even though Theravada certainly emphasizes the 'middle' way the Buddha spoke of, extreme asceticism and suffering is certainly a part of Vajrayana and Mahayana sects (especially the former).
I'm familiar with the classic texts of both Taoism and Buddhism, as well as with Buddhist sects, but know little about contemporary Taoist sects or popular Taoist religion.
but know little about contemporary Taoist sects or popular Taoist religion.
The first time I entered a Taoist temple I was shocked. They didn't teach me about Xi Wang Mu in my college classes!
I'm just curious if the suffering aspect comes from Taoism......extreme asceticism and suffering is certainly a part of Vajrayana and Mahayana sects
Good questions. Ideas certainly have intermingled over the millennia. When I think of Vajrayana suffering, I think, "I am going to sit here and let leaches suck my blood so I can clarify my mind" or "seek out that which bothers you. If graveyards scare you, go sit in a graveyard."
Whereas Daoists will break their legs and suck the marrow out of their bones, or chop their arm off to show they are sincere about learning. Buddhists typically won't starve themselves to death.
I'm not sure what part of extreme asceticism and suffering you were referring to, but if you'd like to discuss it, I'll hear it.
They believed they would go to a very desirable heaven, with the ability to help people on Earth, but only if their body remained intact. They never believed they would be reanimated, in fact, they didn't even believe that they were escaping the cycle of death and rebirth, but that they could live in that heaven for over a million years, helping humanity.
It's strange, I admit, but no stranger in my view than something like taking communion.
At it's core, Buddhism is about learning non-reaction to both pleasure and pain, treating both as mere sensation. I suppose this practice could be defended in that vein. However, it reminds me more of the Buddha's early ascetic practices, that he himself renounced, declaring that there is no point in actively harming oneself, and that one should instead work to reduce craving and aversion (the two fundamental types of reaction).
There was another article about a small sect of Japanese Buddhist monks that had some horrible practices, like screaming at each other in the morning, and so on. Even stranger (and more horrible) practices exist. But I would not call them Buddhist.
Shingon is a Vajrayana-style mystic tradition of Buddhism: more similar to Tibetan Buddhism than more popular East Asian forms. Also, it has been basically isolated in Japan since about the year 800. Although there is a Chinese school, contact was apparently limited.
The screaming might be part of Zen training. They scream at disciples to focus their mind on whatever they are doing right now. No daydreaming or you get screamed at.
Based on having read a fair chunk of the earliest Buddhist records, my guess is that he would probably have ridiculed or at least discouraged this practice. Obviously anyone capable of going through with it has tremendous spiritual strength, though.