[AlexCoventry]

I don't know, what's an example of something of real spiritual value?

Based on having read a fair chunk of the earliest Buddhist records, my guess is that he would probably have ridiculed or at least discouraged this practice. Obviously anyone capable of going through with it has tremendous spiritual strength, though.

[ktRolster]

This probably comes from Taoism, not from Buddhism. There's a lot of Tao in Japanese Buddhism, because it came there by way of China.

Suffering (and ritual suicide, too) is very much a part of Taoism.

[omarchowdhury]

Source? See nothing about killing oneself as path in the Tao Te Ching.

[ktRolster]

The Tao Te Ching is a book about daoism that entered into a religious practice that was already happening. It is not the only book, there is also (for example) the Yinfujing. Much teaching is also done orally.

Read any book about Daoist monks in China and you will surely come across some of their suffering and other antics. The ending of the movie "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" is a popular reference to such a suicide.

[Mikeb85]

> Suffering (and ritual suicide, too) is very much a part of Taoism.

Interesting, it's certainly not found in the 'classics' of Taoism. Where exactly does it come from?

[ktRolster]

The 'classics' of Taoism you read in college (Tao te Qing, Chuangze) don't cover a LOT of what monks do in practice. I assume those are the books you are referring to when talking about 'classics'

[Mikeb85]

Fair enough. I'm just curious if the suffering aspect comes from Taoism, or the various Buddhist sects which have come through the region. Even though Theravada certainly emphasizes the 'middle' way the Buddha spoke of, extreme asceticism and suffering is certainly a part of Vajrayana and Mahayana sects (especially the former).

I'm familiar with the classic texts of both Taoism and Buddhism, as well as with Buddhist sects, but know little about contemporary Taoist sects or popular Taoist religion.

[ktRolster]

but know little about contemporary Taoist sects or popular Taoist religion.

The first time I entered a Taoist temple I was shocked. They didn't teach me about Xi Wang Mu in my college classes!

I'm just curious if the suffering aspect comes from Taoism......extreme asceticism and suffering is certainly a part of Vajrayana and Mahayana sects

Good questions. Ideas certainly have intermingled over the millennia. When I think of Vajrayana suffering, I think, "I am going to sit here and let leaches suck my blood so I can clarify my mind" or "seek out that which bothers you. If graveyards scare you, go sit in a graveyard."

Whereas Daoists will break their legs and suck the marrow out of their bones, or chop their arm off to show they are sincere about learning. Buddhists typically won't starve themselves to death.

I'm not sure what part of extreme asceticism and suffering you were referring to, but if you'd like to discuss it, I'll hear it.

[Mikeb85]

> Whereas Daoists will break their legs and suck the marrow out of their bones, or chop their arm off to show they are sincere about learning.

Interested to find out more about this... Any links?

Guess it's kind of like Hinduism, you think it's all vegetarianism and non-violence, then you discover there's gurus engaging in human sacrifice and black magic.