[calinet6]

Serious question: whose WiFi is not working, to the degree that they think, "I really need to get a modern router to make this Internet thing actually work."

I'm seeing about a dozen fancy modern wifi routers all trying to solve a problem I'm not sure exists.

[xahrepap]

I had nothing but problems with typical consumer hardware. Having to restart routers all the time. Dead spots. When family would visit (both my wife and I have large families) they would connect at least 2 devices each to my wifi (tablet, phone, laptop, etc). My wireless would just tank. They would always ask me why my internet was so terrible.

Last year I bought an Edge router and a higher end Netgear hotspot. Works wonders separating things out and letting me easily add separate "Guest" wireless networks on different channels or whatever using my older devices.

If I were to have done that change now I would've definitely used a device like Google's. But to do something like that would've been outside my budget. I wish I could easily add new hotspots that just seamlessly worked so that I could eliminate the dead spots on the edges of my house and in my yard over time.

Maybe there's something I don't know already and I don't need Google's new Wifi System. But it definitely seems to fix my usecase.

[robocat]

Ubiquiti Unifi Access Points just work.

I too have bought a variety of high end consumer devices (for a small business), and they all crash or randomly drop out.

Disable wifi radio on router, plug in Unifi AP, solid connection.

They are annoying to configure, but have been so worth it.

Apple AirPort has also been rock solid.

[saidajigumi]

Motion seconded on Unifi. I've just deployed these and they're so far a delight. The PoE (power-over-ethernet) support is great -- if you can get the ethernet cable to the AP's location, you're good. Allows for zero visible cable installations if you have the opportunity to do in-wall cabling.

I did spring for a "Unifi Cloud Key", which is just a small (pack of cards sized), dedicated host for running the Unifi Controller. Makes administration and updates a fair bit easier.

As someone else mentioned, they do require a wired ethernet connection, but the point of that is these are intended as (entry-level) enterprise hardware. Unifi vs. Amplifi is for contexts where 1) the administration overhead isn't a burden and 2) it's preferable to run cable and leave wifi bandwidth available for clients and/or the rich multiple network support (vs. mesh networking). Obviously, #1 means it's not intended for the general consumer market.

[ebrewste]

I wish they didn't do 24V PoE. I know they are coming from a WISP background, but a AP seems like something that should support 802.11af. It's not like it's something exotic.

[saidajigumi]

Note that the Unifi AP AC Pro (which I'm using) are 802.3af/at (PoE/PoE+). The AC LR and AC Lite are indeed passive 24v. So there's that option within the line at least.

[cwisecarver]

I have a Ubuquiti ERL3 with 2 AirPorts and a TimeCapsule. One I got them placed around the house in good spots I had no problems. I'm halfway hoping the Apple stuff will die or be outmoded soon so I can replace them with Ubiquiti Unifi Access Points. I have a Ubiquiti EdgeSwitch too and one of their cameras. Everything I've gotten from them has been rock-solid. The configuration isn't on an iOS app but the forums/community are great.

My office just upgraded to an ERL3 and Ubiquiti Unifi on my recommendation and there hasn't been a peep about internet problems since.

[hossbeast]

Ubiquiti Unifi APs each require an Ethernet connection. They do not form a mesh network. That's the whole point of amplifi, and this new Google wifi product

[ricardobeat]

Latest AC APs can't, but previous models all supported mesh networking.

[unprepare]

> I wish I could easily add new hotspots that just seamlessly worked so that I could eliminate the dead spots on the edges of my house and in my yard over time.

Ubiquiti has wifi APs and you can add them whenever youd like. They automatically detect the existing APs and download their config.

[calinet6]

I could be lighting a fire by saying this, but I've been using AirPorts for 5 years and haven't had a single issue.

Is the issue just that the non-Apple-customer market didn't have a good analogue?

[bsder]

> I've been using AirPorts for 5 years and haven't had a single issue.

And I've had Airports that just dropped things--all the time, randomly.

The Airports were a very mixed bag and would go from being excellent to piles of dogsh*t and back again with software upgrades let alone hardware cycles.

[threeseed]

I use a Belkin with no issues. If WiFi drop outs were such a major issue all of the major vendors would have released products years ago.

This very much has the feeling of a "marketing" product designed to trick people into thinking it will solve internet speeds. When really the issue is the ADSL connection.

[honkhonkpants]

If you are using a Belkin and you aren't constantly monitoring it for security updates then it is behind on the security updates. That is the problem with mass market wifi gear. Before I got my OnHub I was either upgrading the firmware on my Asus, or power cycling it because it had crashed again, at least monthly. I've had my OnHub for about a year and I haven't even seen it once since I installed it.

[Morgawr]

Disclaimer: I am employed by Google but I do not work nor have any affiliation with this product, this is just my opinion and not that of my employer.

All the experience I've always had with wifi in the last ~10 years has been abysmal. I play games and make a lot of use of internet (downloading, working through ssh sessions, etc) and the slight hiccup and packet loss is very evident in my system and frustrates me a lot. When I am playing games and there's a slight interference, I notice immediately. When I am chatting on irc through ssh and my keystrokes don't go through due to spotty wifi, I notice immediately. Sometimes it's unbearable. I think this idea is really great. I had to finetune my wifi so many times in all the apartments I've lived at. Using channel analysers to pick the correct one every once in a while (due to recurring congestion/interferences), living in a very crowded area I often have ~30 access points broadcasting and cluttering and it's really obvious in the performance of my network.

In the last apartment I was staying at (moved out a few days ago), every time my flatmate at the opposite side of the house would open the living room door to walk to the bathroom, my signal would experience a latency spike of 100-200ms (average would be 10-20). We had a pretty poor router, to be honest, and I was at the other side of the apartment, but it was simply ridiculous. At times it would just refuse to work and I couldn't browse the internet for a few minutes simply because of too much congestion.

I think this idea with multiple smart access points is simply genius and while I plan to use wired connection for my next apartment, I'm definitely looking forward to a better implementation of the currently abysmal wifi that we have in general.

[SubiculumCode]

but wifi extenders have been on the market for a long time and are easy to use

[zippergz]

The number one "family tech support" question I get these days is "why doesn't my internet work?" Usually meaning it's too slow, drops out, or doesn't work in certain parts of the house. Often they've done something like adding a cheap "wireless repeater" expecting it to fix the problem, and just making it worse.

Anything that allows me to just say "go buy this" instead of having to troubleshoot their cheap ISP-provided combo access point/router is a win in my book....

[peterbonney]

In my NYC apartment, the physical WAN connection is in a rather unfortunate location. There's no good spot to place a router in the center of the apartment, and no unobtrusive way to run cable there if there was such a spot. As a result I have to choose between a wifi dead zone in my bedroom, or a strategically located repeater. I've chosen the latter.

If I lived in a less dense area, in a wood-framed house of the same size, I have no doubt my wifi would be just fine. But with all the interference from neighbors and all the reinforced concrete, my home wifi definitely has a problem that requires something more than the simplest, cheapest router to solve.

This Google product might work very well for my use case, though I'm happy enough with my current solution.

[teacup50]

Unless you have lead walls, a ~1000 sq ft apartment should be fully covered by a single access point.

The problem in NYC is that there's just too much band crowding; adding more access points is only going to provide an improvement (if any at all) until everyone else does it, too, and then it's going to be worse for everyone.

We really need better solutions for extremely high-density deployment of competing WiFi networks.

[mikeyouse]

Unfortunately, it doesn't take lead to attenuate WiFi signals. Many turn-of-the-century buildings used chickenwire under plaster on the interior walls. This makes a pretty effective Faraday cage:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB126221116097210861

My SF apartment is the same -- well under 1,000sqft, need an enterprise router and a substantial repeater to get signal on the end opposite from the cable modem.

[acdha]

It's not just old buildings, either – at a previous employer we learned that a lot of the interior walls had a similar mesh inside. You could put a Cisco AP set to the highest power levels on one side, move a laptop one foot away on the other side and barely be online. We solved that by adding extra APs, which wasn't a big deal since we had the budget and plenty of Ethernet drops but in a residential building - especially a rental - that'd have been an annoying amount to pay.

[stordoff]

My house, built <20 years ago (UK), has something similar. Currently at 4 APs (DD-WRT routers acting as APs, all hardwired to a central router), and still some rooms only get a patchy signal (fortunately we're more than 50ft on all sides from other building, so not too concerning about interference). 5GHz is even worse - for any practical use, it's pretty much limited to a single room per router.

[jburgess777]

Going 5Ghz is definitely a step in the right direction. Not only does it provide greater bandwidth for more channels but the reduced range actually helps avoid interference.

The downside is that you might need more access points to achieve equivalent coverage. Forming a mesh, like these Google APs do, is useful for avoiding additional wiring.

The beam-forming features present in 802.11n and 802.11ac also help reduce interference.

[sbierwagen]

  The problem in NYC is that there's just too much band crowding

802.11ad will help there: runs on 60GHz. Certainly won't penetrate drywall. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ad

[peterbonney]

The walls may not be a primary problem, but they do contribute. The simple test (which I've done) is to stand either side of a wall and check the signal. With an unobstructed line of sight to the router the signal is acceptable; on the other side of the wall the signal is poor (dropped ping packets, high latency, etc.). I doubt it's because of the additional 1 foot of distance from the router.

But to your point, I'm sure it's all interrelated and if I had concrete walls with no neighbors it would be significantly better.

[Negitivefrags]

I used to have wifi issues, but then I bought one of the UniFi Long Range wifi models.

I really can't imagine a house that would not be entirely serviced by a single one of those.

I still get 3 bars on my iPhone 30 meters down my driveway, let alone in the house.

I got one because we use them at work, and I was still getting usable internet in a supermarket 100 meters from my office across a parking lot.

They are designed for commercial use so initial setup is a bit complicated and requires java, but I have to recommend it.

[stordoff]

Getting range in open air is easy (relatively speaking), but obstructions (walls etc.) can have a huge effect. I've managed >100m on a WRT-54G (with a slightly increase output power and a 7dBi antenna); same setup wouldn't reliably connect between my study and living room (~15m distance) due, presumably, to the metal in the walls.

[captn3m0]

UniFi LRs are really great, however I found it hard to get hold of the 5GHz ones.

[mrbill]

UAP-AC-Lite and UAP-ACs and UAP-AC-LRs are available next-day-delivery from Amazon... I recently bought a UAP-AC-LR (to compare against my OnHub) and had it two days later via Prime.

They now even allow basic AP config via an Android/iOS app, so I didn't have to install the Java-based controller on a Windows box...

[puddintane]

Apartments can have this issue - where I live there are 50+ access points visible and even with the router directly next to our streaming device I cannot stream Netflix HD (75 mbps plan with Comcast).

edit Not saying that Google's system fixes this but some users require nicer routers for that connection. I should note my actual computer gets an ethernet because I can never achieve on wireless what I can on wired!

[threeseed]

This wouldn't solve that problem. Switching to Ethernet or finding a free channel (good luck) is the only solution.

[wtallis]

Deploying software support for dynamic transmit power control would help a ton without requiring more wired infrastructure or more spectrum, both of which tend to be extremely expensive. When your laptop is in the same room as the access point, there's no need to be transmitting loud enough to clobber your neighbor's traffic. See https://github.com/thuehn/Minstrel-Blues

[randyrand]

Not the only solution technically, put up grounded metal wall panels or wire mesh on the walls. Mounting tape/nail them on the walls if you live in an apartment.

https://www.google.com/search?q=metal+wall+panels&source=lnm...

[honkhonkpants]

Well it might. Google centrally manages each OnHub to actively pick the best channel, where "best" takes into account nearby networks and their channels and other spectral problems.

[dragonwriter]

> Serious question: whose WiFi is not working, to the degree that they think, "I really need to get a modern router to make this Internet thing actually work."

With stock ISP router, I see occasional connectivity problems with several devices connected and one of them is streaming video (even though there is more than enough upstream bandwidth capacity to handle multiple devices streaming), all reasonably close to the router, and greater problems when one is farther from the router (even without any of the streaming video), in a relatively modest suburban house (<1500sf).

Anecdotally, I've seen lots of similar complaints from other people.

[the_watcher]

It's not about the internet not working in general. These routers are about dead spots in places that have functional internet already. It's a pretty common problem that absolutely does exist.

[cocktailpeanuts]

I live in downtown Manhattan and have that problem, but like OP asked, I don't think it's a huge enough problem to warrant a separate router just for the purpose. Most people simply use the router rented out from their internet provider (for free), and in most cases just make it work somehow (instead of buying a new device just for routing they would rather acknowledge that wifi doesn't work well in some parts of the apartment and live with it). Sure sometimes it's shitty and I have to reboot it to get it to work again, but I can live with it if it's not too often.

[dragonwriter]

> Most people simply use the router rented out from their internet provider (for free), and in most cases just make it work somehow (instead of buying a new device just for routing they would rather acknowledge that wifi doesn't work well in some parts of the apartment and live with it). Sure sometimes it's shitty and I have to reboot it to get it to work again, but I can live with it if it's not too often.

OTOH, for lots of people the cost of a new router is a small fraction of even a years ISP service, so if it significantly improves performance of the internet service you are paying for monthly, and is usable for several years, its worth it.

[Namrog84]

Do any ISP really provide for free a router? Every place I've ever known will sneak it in as a couple dollars a month if you don't provide you own.

[daurnimator]

They often come free if you sign a longer contract.

[calinet6]

Especially at the level of a $300-$500 investment, I'll add.

Sure, I might upgrade for $50-100 if it's more reliable.

[TheAcen]

A few people in larger buildings are indeed having an issue with connecting to the base point.

This access point 'network' uses each other to make a mesh network, increasing the chance that the nearest access point has a connection to the base access point, which has a connection to the internet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_networking

[some-guy]

I had wireless issues in an urban area (Downtown Oakland) where every router I tried had 10% packet loss in the 2.4Ghz band (5Ghz band was fine, but less coverage).

We got an Eero to try to fix the coverage problem (I lived with several housemates), but it didn't let us choose between 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz, it would switch dynamically. Certain IoT devices we had were 2.4Ghz and worked intermittently. No matter what router we used, no matter how expensive, the issue there never went away. There were ways to force the 5Ghz band on the client side using some BSSID hacks, but it was cumbersome. So we had to switch back to a single router setup with two networks, one 2.4Ghz and one 5Ghz, and urge people to only use the 2.4Ghz network if absolutely necessary.

I live elsewhere now and use a cheap 802.11ac TP-Link router without any issues in a house for a 200mbps connection.

[jedberg]

The 2.4 going out was probably whenever one of your roommates or neighbors used the microwave. :)

[SmellyGeekBoy]

Just talk to anyone who uses BT in the UK. Their HomeHub is atrocious. I replaced mine with a Draytek modem and high end Asus router and not only have my speeds gone up, I now get emails from no-IP asking me to manually renew my dynamic DNS domains because the connection routinely stays up for months (as opposed to days) at a time.

Edit: Oops, I should probably say something about improved wifi as well, as that was the point of the parent comment! :P

Needless to say my ISP's aforementioned modem router struggled to cover our typically average (for the UK) 3 bed semi. I even had a wired network point installed in my office upstairs, which I've barely used since we chucked it out. We can pick up the Asus router half way down the street!

[iraldir]

Yep, I'm on BT with a 200mb fiber connection, and I use to use the default HomeHub. It was failing daily, the speed would drop to like 3mb, and you had to restart the router to get a proper speed again, connection would not always work. Just like you I bought a high end ASUS modem (120£, way more that I ever paid for a modem) but it was totally worth it. The wifi connection is now always top of the range, it has never needed reconnection, it changes everything. Definitely don't regret.

[imajes]

the number of networks i see living in a densely populated city (NYC) is pretty intense. Most modernish routers indiscriminately broadcast on both the 5GHZ + 2.4GHZ band, plus create an automatic (or, at least, one-click) guest network. So in a given building there maybe something like 2+ SSIDs per apartment.

that alone creates plenty of noise to wade through...

[sp332]

Do multiple SSIDs from a single AP create more interference?

[NegativeK]

I'm in Chicago, in a dense-but-not-a-high-rise area. LTE on my phone was drastically better than wifi on any device -- on weekday evenings, my laptop was useless. In a 700 square foot apartment. Bought an OnHub, now shit works. Google is definitely not full of shit when they say that the routers are really solid at optimizing the setup.

I could've fussed with placement of the old router, hunted through the channels, installed different firmware, or whatever -- but I don't spend that much time at home, and that's no longer what I'm interested in fiddling with.

[kyriakos]

depends how large your house is, the material of the walls etc.

I personally do need multiple routers to get wifi throughout the house.

[ams6110]

I have a Netgear router and it's fine. Sometimes I have to reboot it but it seems related to Apple devices that refuse to give up their prior IP address after they've been away, causing conflicts when they return and the address has been assigned to another device in the meantime.

[linsomniac]

I'll raise my hand to this. And I'm not a mere mortal, I've run wifi for 1000+ attendee computer conferences. And I have problems with my home WiFi to the point that I got a OnHub a year ago to try to help.

Oddly, it basically did solve it except in a couple places in my house until a few weeks ago when the drop-outs got a lot worse (again, at the edges). The conspiracy theroists will love that. :-)

A real problem is that 2.4GHz is crowded not just by wifi but by other things. My old AP I couldn't use when I used my Microwave, and it is a brand new high end microwave. Not something I'd expect to leak. The OnHub did much better than the previous Buffalo (which in other locations has worked great for me).

So, you want to go 5.2GHz, because there is more spectrum. But there is also less interference because --- wait for it --- it doesn't go as far and penetrate walls as well. Which reduces interference. But it really means you want an AP directly in the rooms where you use WiFi the most. Which means you want something like this where multiple APs can cooperate.

The OnHub also is supposed to have stupendous antennas and multiple radios, even allowing it to do spectrum surveys. That's according to the marketing literature.

But it's not just me. My inlaws just built a 4600 ft^2 house and their A/V guy installed a AP in the centrally located laundry room. Wifi was terrible in the living room, and unusable in half the other rooms. Not sure if it was a crappy AP, or the location or what. I put another AP in the Livingroom and solved most of their pressing problems. But when I go back at Christmas I expect to put in an OnHub or Eero or AmpliFi... They have Ethernet all over the house, so I want something that can do wired meshing like the Eero. The AmpliFi doesn't seem to support it, IIRC, and the OnHub doesn't say anything about it with todays release, but the old OnHub is supposed to support it, according to a line item in their FAQ. I'm skeptical until I see it.

My brother in laws new house ALSO has similar problems. He had wireless drop outs, and was going to get the Eero, but I pointed him at the AmpliFi, which he got and has been VERY happy with.

If Google WiFi supports wired meshing, I will probably get that. If not, I'll either get a second OnHub, or maybe switch to the AmpliFi, especially if AmpliFi supports wired meshing and PoE. Ubiquity's cameras support PoE, so I'm hopeful there.

So, do these fancy products solve a problem that doesn't exist? Well, I'm glad your wifi works so well. But I'm definitely having problems at home, and am not alone. At least at work the WiFi is pretty uncomplicated, oddly enough since we have steel stud construction.

[itodd]

Me. I'm in the market for a new wireless router. My N66U drops out hourly. It never had great coverage. I have tried different firmware in an effort to save it but I believe it's dead.

[at-fates-hands]

I had the same reaction.

After some fussing, I bite the bullet and went back to Xfinity. I have a Netgear AC1750 router and an Aaris modem and I've never had coverage or speed issues in my house.

[ladzoppelin]

Any house with double pained impact glass, for Hurricanes can severely limit your Wifi signal.

[bsder]

This isn't about Internet. It's about streaming video.

It's about slowly caching the top 100 YouTube videos and then moving them quickly to whatever device you want to watch them on.