[forty]

Given that you made a link between killing and abortion, it was pretty obvious that you were against abortion. Pro abortion people do not believe abortion is killing anyone.

[reitanqild]

If you read up on the way it is practiced there is a fat chance you will see the link as well. (Hint, they aren't always dead when they come out. Recently (2 years ago IIRC) even nurses who work with this day in and day out started objecting to the practice because as they said; it is completely crazy that on one room they are fighting to save the life of a premature child and on the next they are throwing a towel over an equally old babys face so their mom won't hear it crying before they finally bleed out/and or suffocate.)

Also : we are way off topic and I don't want to continue this thread.

[lolc]

These episodes could only happen in late-stage abortions which are very rare. You can call it murder but that doesn't inform the debate about abortion in general.

[Chris2048]

Yes it does, you focus on the harm. If late stage abortion is wrong, it needs to be outlawed, and hence that would be the focus of the debate.

[lolc]

The way I read it the parent comment portrayed all abortions to be of this type. ("If you read up on the way it is practiced there is a fat chance you will see the link as well.") To me there is a big difference between the original "abortion is murder" and your "this rare form of abortion is murder."

[Chris2048]

Looking at this site: http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics...

there are ~1m abortions a year, 3.2% after 18 weeks; Which is about 32,000.

In absolute terms, this is dwarfed by pre-18wk abortions, more than half happen before week 8.

Hence it may be relatively rare, but:

a) The law allows late-stage, hence 100% of abortions are allowed to be late stage.

b) those figures might change, but in absolute and % terms. Early abortions are the more common now, no guarantees how that may change.

I think the many pro-lifers see the distinction as a slippery slope.

[reitanqild]

>> The way I read it the parent comment portrayed all abortions to be of this type.

Clarification since there is a misunderstanding about my understanding: No, I know most of them are not this type. I also think there is a difference between late and early although I personally would advice against both. I am not a lawmaker though.

A little background: yes, I grew up in a pro life family and while I was always personally against I didn't really start bothering until that piece of news struck me from one of the major newspapers that day. Knowing this kind of cruelty actually happens on a more or less regular basis (well known by nurses even in the small country I live in) and on the scale of 88/day * botch_factor it is now hard not to care.

That said, yes, from a pragmatic perspective just getting rid of most of those 32000 late ones would be mighty good. I would believe a number of you could agree with that.

There is now and has been for some time a somewhat healthy debate around death penalty. Unfortunately IMO it seems that the right to kill innocent children before (or, if necessary because procedure failed, after ) birth is somehow sacred and cannot be discussed publicly.

[Chris2048]

There isn't just a abstract link, there is an explicit definition if you consider a fetus to be human, which is what the debate is about.

[sqeaky]

Someone could connect the two and simply be pro-murder.

[Natanael_L]

There are people in favor of mankind going extinct