>I had reasoned this out in my mind; there was one of two things I had a right to, liberty, or death; if I could not have one, I would have the other; for no man should take me alive;
Perhaps if I experienced slavery, I would prefer death, but from where I sit now, I would rather be alive than dead, even if it meant not being free.
I can't imagine what my grandparents went through in concentration camps, but it seems to me that they did everything they could to survive...and I am grateful for that, otherwise, I wouldn't be here today!
Mentioning your grandparents is irrelevant. We don't dislike Israel because it is Jewish or because we have no sympathy for what happened to Jews in the past. We dislike it because it is a nation (nothing to do with jewishness or any religion; a political entity) of educated people with western outlooks and lifestyles which fails spectacularly (they all do, but even more than most) to live up to the moral standards we expect of such nations.
I mentioned my grandparents in the context of freedom vs. dying...a very relevant point.
I wasnt talking about Israel in that comment nor did I invoke Judaism or the holocaust in its defense anywhere else.
However, considering how you went on the defensive to a point that wasnt relevant at all (this post isnt about liking Israel, it is about censorship and the limits of free speech)...
It really does beg the question if you dislike Israel for reasons other than the moral standards to invoke from your high horse...I dont know you so I have no opinions about your own prejudices, but I think you should take a hard look in the mirror...if only to be truthful to yourself.
> It really does beg the question if you dislike Israel for reasons other than the moral standards to invoke from your high horse...I dont know you so I have no opinions about your own prejudices, but I think you should take a hard look in the mirror...if only to be truthful to yourself.
Talk about slippery slope! Pulling the ideological taser the way you did is not just libelous, it is intellectually dishonest.
I just re-read this thread and realized there was a miscommunication.
My comment was intended to be a real world example of someone choosing life in slavery over dying in response to the idea of "give me liberty or give me death"...
I reread my comment and can see how someone might misinterpret it as invoking the holocaust to defend the state of Israel. That was never my intention and does not reflect my viewpoints on Israel. I dont believe the holocaust or antisemitism has anything to do with the right of the state of Israel to exist.
OK, thanks for the clarification. I agree they have nothing to do with the right of Israel to exist. And of course it has a right to exist, like any state. In order to be taken seriously as a modern state it does of course need to change its ways and acknowledge that as a state it is for all people of all religions and of none, and that it is not in any sense a state "for" people of any particular religion.
You do however still need to apologize for accusing me of criticizing Israel out of antisemitism. You did it implicitly ("...reasons other...hard look in the mirror..") but it was clear enough that one other commenter has independently criticized you for it. It is for that reason that I have used the rather impolite adjective "deluded" in reference to you -- it's of course extremely common for supporters of Israel to accuse their critics of antisemitism, aiming that accusation at young western liberals who don't even remember the times when antisemitism was an issue in their societies. Those accusations are delusional, or just cynical deliberate inaccuracy; one or the other.
GP criticized you, as I did, because your comment clearly reveals you to have a paranoid, and delusional, belief that others dislike Israel out of antisemitism.
Perhaps if I experienced slavery, I would prefer death, but from where I sit now, I would rather be alive than dead, even if it meant not being free.
I can't imagine what my grandparents went through in concentration camps, but it seems to me that they did everything they could to survive...and I am grateful for that, otherwise, I wouldn't be here today!