[Myrmornis]

Mentioning your grandparents is irrelevant. We don't dislike Israel because it is Jewish or because we have no sympathy for what happened to Jews in the past. We dislike it because it is a nation (nothing to do with jewishness or any religion; a political entity) of educated people with western outlooks and lifestyles which fails spectacularly (they all do, but even more than most) to live up to the moral standards we expect of such nations.

[davemel37]

Huh?

I mentioned my grandparents in the context of freedom vs. dying...a very relevant point.

I wasnt talking about Israel in that comment nor did I invoke Judaism or the holocaust in its defense anywhere else.

However, considering how you went on the defensive to a point that wasnt relevant at all (this post isnt about liking Israel, it is about censorship and the limits of free speech)...

It really does beg the question if you dislike Israel for reasons other than the moral standards to invoke from your high horse...I dont know you so I have no opinions about your own prejudices, but I think you should take a hard look in the mirror...if only to be truthful to yourself.

[vidoc]

> It really does beg the question if you dislike Israel for reasons other than the moral standards to invoke from your high horse...I dont know you so I have no opinions about your own prejudices, but I think you should take a hard look in the mirror...if only to be truthful to yourself.

Talk about slippery slope! Pulling the ideological taser the way you did is not just libelous, it is intellectually dishonest.

[davemel37]

I just re-read this thread and realized there was a miscommunication.

My comment was intended to be a real world example of someone choosing life in slavery over dying in response to the idea of "give me liberty or give me death"...

I reread my comment and can see how someone might misinterpret it as invoking the holocaust to defend the state of Israel. That was never my intention and does not reflect my viewpoints on Israel. I dont believe the holocaust or antisemitism has anything to do with the right of the state of Israel to exist.

I do however believe in Good and Evil.

[Myrmornis]

OK, thanks for the clarification. I agree they have nothing to do with the right of Israel to exist. And of course it has a right to exist, like any state. In order to be taken seriously as a modern state it does of course need to change its ways and acknowledge that as a state it is for all people of all religions and of none, and that it is not in any sense a state "for" people of any particular religion.

You do however still need to apologize for accusing me of criticizing Israel out of antisemitism. You did it implicitly ("...reasons other...hard look in the mirror..") but it was clear enough that one other commenter has independently criticized you for it. It is for that reason that I have used the rather impolite adjective "deluded" in reference to you -- it's of course extremely common for supporters of Israel to accuse their critics of antisemitism, aiming that accusation at young western liberals who don't even remember the times when antisemitism was an issue in their societies. Those accusations are delusional, or just cynical deliberate inaccuracy; one or the other.

[davemel37]

You are right. I apologize. Before I re-read my comment,just based on my intent of that comment, it seemed like you took a very big leap, which begged the question...but now that I have the benefit of seeing how the comment can easily be interpreted the way you did, I was completely wrong to imply your position was anything other than what you stated (you expect more/better from Israel.)

All that being said, to your point of delusion... > "when antisemitism was an issue in their societies"

Antisemitism IS STILL very much a problem today, even in the US.

Here is a quote from the FBI's Websites most recent hate crime statistics (2014)

Religious bias Of the 1,140 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:

56.8 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders’ anti-Jewish bias.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2014/topic-...

---------------- > "it's of course extremely common for supporters of Israel to accuse their critics of antisemitism, aiming that accusation at young western liberals who don't even remember the times when antisemitism was an issue in their societies. Those accusations are delusional, or just cynical deliberate inaccuracy; one or the other."

The way I feel is that the belief that anti-semitism isn't relevant and tangled into peoples perception of Israel warrants the same criticism..." Those accusations are delusional, or just cynical deliberate inaccuracy; one or the other." ------------- Regardless, all things being equal...give two conflicting positions, both legitimate views based on how the issues are framed and perceived by each side, I would always err on the side of caution and saving a life...

This might be an unfair characterization or comparison(regardless, I ackowledge my own bias on this point)...but given the choice between wrongly accusing someone who is anti israel as antisemitic, versus the alternative of blindly ignoring signs that can lead to antisemitic violent hate crimes, such as we see over 500 times a year in the US alone (much worse in Europe), the choice to me is obvious...Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst.

That might sound delusional and paranoid...and I can't disagree with that position from a logical standpoint...but, that doesn't change the reality that there were warning signs for years before the Holocaust, and it took years for the US to intervene despite reports about concentration camps...so, even if the position is seen by the world as crazy and that "the holocaust" could never happen again... forgive us paranoid Jews, from having a plan B...and trying to stop Anti-Semitism proactively, to the point of offending some liberals sensitivities about being accused of being a racist. ---------------------- All of this being said, I do apologize for implying your position against Israel is anti-semitic, clearly that isn't the case with you and maybe even with most liberals...but it's a mistake to think it's not the case with others, just because you are more sensible and reasonable.

----------------------- For what it's worth, the sooner both sides learn to recognize the sincerity and legitimacy of the other sides conflicting perspective, peace will never be achieved. We are all humans, we all have our biases, many of which we are not aware of...and there is a lot to improve on all sides... Israel is not above reproach, and the people who throw out antisemitic accusations against anyone who disagrees with Israel, is delusional...but that doesn't mean they aren't right some of the time...

Reminds me of the saying, "Just because I am paranoid, doesn't mean people aren't after me."

[davemel37]

Huh? All I said is take an honest look at why he felt the need to get defensive.

I am of course perplexed how you perceived that as libel, dishonest, and a slippery slope.

If you knew me, you would know that I was withholding judgement, just encouraging honest introspection...something I try to do constantly.

[Myrmornis]

GP criticized you, as I did, because your comment clearly reveals you to have a paranoid, and delusional, belief that others dislike Israel out of antisemitism.

[davemel37]

lol

[Myrmornis]

Sorry, I meant westerners. You're laughing presumably because many Arabs dislike Israel out of antisemitism. That's true enough. But I'm referring to the fact that most university-educated people in Europe and America under the age of 40 find the inhumane collective punishment meted out by Israel to be disgusting and unforgivable. It's not due to antisemitism, however much deluded people like you would like to believe it is.