[thomasmarriott]

'It's really simple. We come up with a product. We try to tell everybody about it. Customer tell us by how they vote with their wallets whether we're on track or not. If enough of them say 'yes,' we get to come to work tomorrow.' — SJ

[deong]

That's a model that works a lot better when you're a relative nobody than when you're the biggest company in the world. The reality is that people will buy whatever Apple sells them, within reason. They're not going to come out with an iPhone that's so bad that no one will buy it. That doesn't mean the customer has voted that that particular iPhone was exactly what they wanted. Success hides problems.

[JadeNB]

But surely the lesson from Microsoft is that Apple won't stay forever the biggest company in the world if they keep making products people don't want. On the other hand, if they keep making products that they think people want and we think they don't, and if they keep being successful, then maybe it's we the pundits, rather than Apple the company or its satisfied customers (which is not all of them!), who are wrong?

(I say this as someone who would like his phone to have a headphone jack, and doesn't personally want a new iPhone—and, on a more personal note (I'm a several-generations-out-of-date Android user not much affected by current iPhone trends), who hates the direction of macOS and wishes it were possible to live in the land of Snow Leopard forever—but also has reluctantly to concede that Apple has a better track record than I do for predicting and shaping the tech marketplace.)

[deong]

Well, Microsoft's primary products are still completely dominant in the markets they're in. Windows and Office are still the 800-pound gorillas (though of course mac OS has narrowed the gap). What happened to Microsoft is more that everyone shifted to a new market (mobile) that they weren't prepared for or strong in.

Eventually, sure. If they made poor decisions for a long enough period of time, their customers would probably go elsewhere. But what I'm talking about here are the odd one-off poor decisions here and there. It may be true that 90% of Apple's customers really want a headphone jack. If that were true, I'd say removing it was a poor move, even if that entire 90% collectively goes, "Well shit. I guess I'll have to live with this overpriced and clunky wireless crap." No product is perfect. You can make a good product worse and still have people say, "Well, it's still good enough I guess."

[dkokelley]

Perhaps, but this is a quote from 2011 when Apple was definitely not a relative nobody. Jobs was discussing his frustrations with selling to the enterprise vs. consumer market.

Quote is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLvvzktuVY8

[deong]

I realize Apple still treats it as a truth that if people buy their products, then they must be on the right track. I'm just saying that I don't necessarily agree. When you accrue enough market power, there start to be other factors you have to account for that could be driving strong sales while hiding the fact that your customers are increasingly unhappy. By the time that unhappiness hits your profits appreciably, it may already be too late to do anything about it.

I don't really think the headphone jack is the start of some grand decline or anything. I'm just saying you can't wait a year, look at strong sales of the iPhone 7, and conclude that it was good decision to remove the jack or that you were particularly visionary to have done so.

[gr3yh47]

> They're not going to come out with an iPhone that's so bad that no one will buy it.

yet i know a 2-decade-long apple user who has felt the final nail in the switching away from the walled garden coffin from the removal of the headphone jack, and i'm sure he is far from alone.

eventually, gradually, incrementally, apple will convince people to leave their walled garden, and they certainly aren't winning many converts with these moves.

[TaylorAlexander]

I guess the issue comes when the whole industry has lost its imagination. Apple comes out with whatever they come out with, everyone follows Apple, and there's no ground shaking new ideas anymore.

You know what I'm interested in? Innovations in radio technology. Why can't I get a phone with built in mesh networking? No some weird bastard wifi hack, but an honest to goodness mesh networking solution maybe with a STANDARD interface? Some way for my phone to talk directly to a friend's phone without any need for a central authority to regulate our communications.

That would be ground breaking.

[runjake]

> Why can't I get a phone with built in mesh networking? No some weird bastard wifi hack, but an honest to goodness mesh networking solution maybe with a STANDARD interface?

Like Bluetooth? Like wifi ad hoc (what's the hack involved)? There are chat/file transfer apps for both of these "mesh" networks on the App Store. They are reasonably popular amongst K12 students when school districts get overzealous with filtering.

What do you realistically want that these don't provide?

[lloyd-christmas]

I'm sure it has come up in product discussions, I bet it's just getting into significant security-concern territory where no one wants to risk being THAT company.

[TaylorAlexander]

Really? I figure the issue is that it would meet significant resistance from carriers, because mesh radio would eat in to their profits.

[lloyd-christmas]

I'd assume they'd be able to manage pricing. 99.9% of people don't root/jailbreak their phones. I'm sure they'd be able to track the data plans/prevent apps that circumvent it.

[digi_owl]

> We try to tell everybody about it.

By having a inside track at big media, and spending massive amounts on advertisement.