[jnbiche]

I'm as opposed to mass surveillance as anyone on HN, but I've been surprised by this kind of reaction. Why are non-citizens surprised at this lack of constitutional protection? Are there actually any countries whose constitutional protections apply to non-citizens and/or non-residents? I think that would be pretty cool and progressive if it were the case, but I'm not aware of any.

[furyg3]

I've said it before, but why WOULDN'T a country provide protections and rights to non-citizens (residents or not) that it outlines in it's constitution? After all, the US founding fathers believed it to be "self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights". If it is always wrong for a government to do certain things, then clearly it is wrong for a government to do those things no matter to whom they are done.

Morally it's clear that you should treat others by the standards that you believe to be universal.

A government's ability to guarantee and protect these rights is, of course, limited by its geography. Other people may have different value systems which mean they protect a different set of rights than those defined in the US constitution (although the DoI does declare them to be 'unalienable'). But that's not what people are talking about when they talk about US government spying internationally. The US government violates rights it considers to be universal, and many of the people who's rights are violated are in countries with similarly enshrined values, and also who's countries are not at war with the US.

[MereInterest]

Completely agreed, especially with the US Constitution's philosophy of restricting the government, rather than providing rights for citizens. A government can only guarantee rights for citizens that are under its jurisdiction, but it can always forbid itself to take actions.

[zaroth]

I think you're missing a key tenant of the purpose of government. Of the people, for the people, doesn't mean all humanity, but rather the people who are being governed and both pay into and benefit from the system. Government being a collective outsourcing of the force required to achieve some common good, again, for the people doing the outsourcing.

That's not to say there couldn't be ratified treaties between countries which give up some measure of sovereignty in order to set some better ground rules. We ratify all sorts of treaties like that, Obama ratified (by executive order, which I didn't know was possible) the Paris accord just last week. But I don't know of any treaties the US has signed to limit non-domestic wiretapping.

[justthisonetime]

And I call BS when I see it. A nation state is morally responsible to it's citizens to uphold the law and order and protect it's citizens [from threats internal and external]. This is funded by the tax money collected by the state from it's subjects. Nation state may, willingly provide protections and other services reserved for it's citizens to others. But concept that it must or should is flawed at heart. World today remains a hostile place and the game for supremacy remains as strong as ever.

[GunboatDiplomat]

This is obviously true. It's equally obvious that the neoliberal consensus is opposed to this and seeks to substitute a globalist fantasy.

[martindelemotte]

The French constitution references the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen which covers "all men, French, foreign, prisoners and enemies".

[jnbiche]

So do the protections afforded by the French constitution apply to "all men, French, foreign, prisoners and enemies"?

[jacquesm]

Yes, it does. There was a ruling long ago (early 1970's) which led to the formal inclusion of the Universal rights of man in the French constitution. It was only referenced (think of that as a hyperlink) and this reference was expanded to include the text in full.

We covered some of this in our class on 'staatsinrichting' where not only the Dutch but also other important European countries organizations were discussed. This one stands out for me because it seems that at least one European country got this one exactly right.

[martindelemotte]

It's interesting to note that since the revolution the French legislators have had an universalist view of things. The goal was to spread the enlightenment ideas to the world (who said the French weren't pretentious).

Of course in practice things haven't always followed the theory. For example in French colonies, although indigenous people were supposed to enjoy the same protections than the French colonists, it didn't happen that way. The excuse was that they needed to be put "up to speed" first.

[martindelemotte]

I'm not a constitutional lawyer but a subset of the protections seem to apply. The French constitution does an "include" of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. A constitutional court decision of 1971 has confirmed its applicability.

[dunkelheit]

As a non-US citizen I don't expect much protection from US constitution. Historically, it had peacefully coexisted with many kinds of discrimination. But I'd rather US government didn't record my communications, constitutional or not. It is not a constitutional matter, it is a human rights matter.

Of course, enforcing it is problematic because the USA is the most powerful country in the world and other governments are not keen on protecting their citizens' rights in this regard. On the contrary, they seem acutely envious of US surveillance powers and are trying to get some of them themselves.

[jnbiche]

> But I'd rather US government didn't record my communications, constitutional or not. It is not a constitutional matter, it is a human rights matter.

For the record, I agree 100%.

[GunboatDiplomat]

The US has an obligation to spy to the maximum extent possible on foreign citizens and entities. Just as every foreign government has the same obligation to spy on the US.

[MereInterest]

Do we? I would say that the obligation of the US government is to follow the goals set in the Constitution as much as possible, until such time as the Constitution is amended or replaced. As much as spying does "provide for the common defence", it is defensible. When the spying alienates allies, it is too much. When the spying forces foreign-held companies to pull out, can it really be said to "promote the general Welfare"?

Why would there be such an obligation for unlimited spying?

[GunboatDiplomat]

Yes, the US government has an obligation to maximize national prosperity and national security.

Spying is the cheapest and most effective way to provide for these goals.

[MereInterest]

And when spying becomes counterproductive, should we still increase the level of spying? When US-led coups destabilize a region, does this maximize national security? When US-based surveillance causes a drop in investment, does this maximize national prosperity?

[GunboatDiplomat]

It hasn't yet become counterproductive. And there is not a point at which becoming more aware of what everyone else is doing becomes counterproductive.

[ionised]

Spying is the cheapest way to maximise national prosperity?

How so?

[GunboatDiplomat]

Spying allows increased national security at minimal cost compared to higher military preparedness. Thus, it allows the same level of security at lower levels of funding.

In addition, spying can give a leg up to domestic commercial interests over foreign commercial interests.

[kuschku]

> Are there actually any countries whose constitutional protections apply to non-citizens and/or non-residents? I think that would be pretty cool and progressive if it were the case, but I'm not aware of any.

Yes, Germany.

Almost all of German constitution applies to any "Person", not even just any human.

And the government has the constitutional requirement to help ensure those rights are granted to people globally.

[cderwin]

FYI most of the U.S. constitution only uses the word "person" as well, but legally persons outside the U.S. who are not citizens have no standing.

[Tomte]

In Germany there is a distinction between citizens and non-citizens.

The most important basic rights are enjoyed by everyone.

Only citizens enjoy some basic rights (freedom of assembly, for example).

But there is a "catchall" basic right (Article 2, paragraph I) that can be used by non-citizens to claim those rights, as well.

The difference is that this catchall basic right is weaker when weighing it against conflicting basic rights (practical concordance) and it has imminent limitations (statutes can override it – although that must be useful and proportional).

[rmc]

Germany had a history of the government claiming "those people there aren't 'people' hence the rights don't apply to them". I suspect the courts might take that into consideration if the government tries that line again.

[jnbiche]

That's impressive. I guess that's the difference between a modern, progressive constitution written over 2 centuries ago versus one written 50 years ago.

Semantic point, do you differentiate between a "human" and "person"? This may be a translation issue, but to me there's no practical difference between the two.

[seren]

I am ignorant of the German constitution, but legally there are more "persons" than humans.

The most famous example is the concept of corporate personhood.

See also : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personhood

[jnbiche]

You're absolutely correct. I was thinking of what is called natural personhood. But I'm curious specifically how the German constitution differentiates the two.

[Sylos]

To me, "human" is a member of the human race, "person" is any creature with consciousness, feelings, personality. So, if an ape/dolphin/alien/robot/whatever is intelligent enough, they are a person to me.

This is my opinion, though a lot of it was shaped by the German education system, so it's definitely possible that when this question becomes actually relevant in a decade or two that a judge might rule this the official interpretation.

[kuschku]

> but to me there's no practical difference between the two.

Well, just in case Lt.Cmdr. Data ever comes to Germany ;)

[pjc50]

ECHR applies to European governments as regards anyone who is a human, including nonresident nonnationals. This was used to make claims for rights violations against Iraqi nationals during the occupation by coalition forces.

Why does it apply this way? Think of the history of the Third Reich violating the rights of noncitizen nonnationals.

[lhopki01]

In the UK the Human Rights Act applies to all Humans (the current government is trying to change this but it still applies) The notion of human rights applying to only citizens is very strange to me.

[pjmlp]

I am surprise that even citizens think that they are safe from mass surveillance regardless of what the country's constitution states.

Secret services obey no law other than their own internal regulations, regardless of what people might see on TV series.

[rmc]

> Are there actually any countries whose constitutional protections apply to non-citizens and/or non-residents?

Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union protects you too! If you're non-US & non-Canadian, and use Facebook, then your data is under the control of Facebook Ireland Ltd, in Ireland. And the CFREU will protect you!