[dleslie]

I did not dismiss the notion that Russia produces propaganda; Russia produces propaganda.

Generally, I expect that those alleging wrong doing are not engaging in the same; and so it appears ironic when an exposed agent of state propaganda alleges that a state is engaging in propaganda. It's a, "well yes, and you would know" sort of humour.

Let those without sin cast the first stones, and all that.

[akjj]

The root of the disagreement seems to be that you read the article as condemnation and I read it as a news story. In any case, I stand by my reading that this a piece of news and any heavy moralizing is a gloss you've imposed.

> so it appears ironic when an exposed agent of state propaganda alleges that a state is engaging in propaganda. It's a, "well yes, and you would know" sort of humour.

I'd say it's more of a "rain on your wedding day" sort of irony.

If the article were planted by the CIA, that would be ironic. If the article were planted by the FSB, that would be even more ironic. But "NY Times reports on foreign propaganda" is not ironic.

[berntb]

1. I am sorry, but you will have to settle for very light gray and very dark gray. Not black and white.

2. It is not just the media of US and Sweden -- most of the democratic world say the same thing. For most subjects, the democratic countries disagree.

[dleslie]

I am attempting to argue for shades of grey; the American and Russian media narratives evoke a polarized situation.

In that manner of thinking, I think it's fair to question the messenger who brings accusations of wrongdoing during a politically sensitive time. That is to say, this reporting came at a serendipitously good time for certain politicians.

That everyone does it doesn't mean that everyone does it to the same extent, or with the same impact, or that doing it is at all justifiable.

[berntb]

>> the American and Russian media narratives evoke a polarized situation.

As it said in what you comment on: Not only "American" -- most every Western democracy.

I think you are very much aware of that you didn't touch my second point above.

[dleslie]

How does that effect the legitimacy of the media engaging in cooperation with state actors for messaging, regardless of which state it is?

It seems to me it doesn't matter who agrees with the Americans regarding the Russians; hell, I agree with the Americans regarding Russian propaganda.

[berntb]

This was not relevant to my point. 4 comments (in 2 places) without touching my point... :-( You are not serious, bye.

You argue also in the other comments that there are small differences between USA and Russia -- my repeated point is that the whole Western democratic world don't agree with your assessments here.

(In Sweden, a good part of the ex communists do agree with you -- at most 5-10% of the population-- but those guys have never supported a democracy in military conflict with a non democracy...)

[dleslie]

My assessment of the USA as being an Oligarchy is in good company[0]; feel free to google further.

0: http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS...