[beachstartup]

i think most people in high level and professional combat sports community would say the real root cause here is MMA (specifically UFC). the internet has certainly accelerated its influence though, and given it a reach that payperview and video tapes could never have facilitated.

basically, there's only a small handful of martial arts that actually work in applied person-to-person combat without weapons. and they're all largely useless in the real world when faced with multiple opponents and/or weapons. critically, you must know all or most of these skills or else you will get taken advantage of. mma has proven that it's basically western wrestling, BJJ (which draws on judo), muay thai and kickboxing, western boxing, and most importantly, an insanely rigorous cardio and strength training program that will allow you to last even a few seconds in the ring with a real fighter.

and even then... you could get your ass knocked out in literally 2 seconds. see: mcgregor. that isn't to say it won't change in the future, but that's basically where it is now.

[arcanus]

Completely agree with the above.

> there's only a small handful of martial arts that actually work in applied person-to-person combat

Even MMA, which is billed as a sorting of martial art's effectiveness, has substantial rules that greatly limit the fighters. For instance, no groin strikes, leg stomps or eye gouges: all of which are actions I've heard are the first thing you should do in a real fight!

Not arguing they should be legal (sport is brutal enough as it is), but even MMA, while closer to "real combat", has severe limitations and arbitrary features.

> all largely useless in the real world when faced with multiple opponents

^ This, 1000x. If you get into a fight you were not planning, it is called an ambush. The most logical action is to run the hell away, or at least, use absolutely overwhelming firepower and dirty, dirty attacks. The concept of two folks trading blows is not how real fights actual progress, let alone two kung-fu masters jumping between buildings...

[wott]

I have always been amazed when I saw friends or acquaintances, who had 10 to 20 years experience of various 'martial' arts, get into bar/street fights. They would exchange never-ending low-kicks and middle-kicks, which were absolutely useless and ineffective, and, after a while, fall or be grabbed and put to the ground.

In comparison, as far as I am concerned, completely untrained (meeting twice a week in a room to hit-on-and-get-hit-by-other-people-but-not-too-much is a concept that feels alien to me), my street/bar fights never lasted more than a few tenths of second. A good old straight punch in the nose/chin with all your body weight, or a good old knee in the balls/liver/ribs/plexus (depends on the size of the bugger, but it always lands somewhere that hurts or incapacitates), or, if in a creative mood, a lift-projection-crash/crush over and under a wall and table. Opponent sleeping, problem solved, can continue heading back home or having another drink, thank you. Oh, yeah, and one very important parameter is to hit first.

I cannot run, so that's not an option and I have to solve problems in a different way (which can include me spending a night in the hospital because the "hit first" thing only works when there is only 1, or perhaps 2 opponents).

This was just to say I have never been convinced by the application of martial arts training in real conditions. Unless people turn themselves into war killing machines, which I do not consider a good thing to do and to be as long as we live in an overall reasonably civilised world.

[krapp]

>This was just to say I have never been convinced by the application of martial arts training in real conditions.

With all due respect, though, unless you know hundreds of trained martial artists and have witnessed them get into hundreds of fights, the data set by which you're judging the validity of martial arts training seems a bit small.

Like a lot of people, you seem to be confusing confusing katas with actual fighting. "meeting twice a week in a room to hit-on-and-get-hit-by-other-people-but-not-too-much" isn't about training for actual real-world combat, it's a martial art, meaning there is a study of form, balance, coordination, etc. involved. Not every martial art is even that practical in the real world (i'm looking at you Aikido.)

But everything you mention as seeming more practical and useful than martial arts? Is still martial arts. "kick them in the balls and punch them in the face" is martial arts.

[S4M]

Where do you live? In all my adult life I've never been in a street fight, and must know like one or two persons who have once.

[the_rosentotter]

I've been in a street fight. The guy attacked, I pushed him back, he came again, I tried to hit him over the head with a beer bottle. He parried with his arm, crashing the bottle, then we tangled and rolled around on the ground a bit. Thank God he was just a clueless frat kid, and his ten friends broke us apart, instead of stomping my head in. Lesson learned: Don't leave it on luck for your life and future mobility. Don't get into street fights.

[saint_fiasco]

Could that be the curse of development?

The martial artist expects that a straight punch to the face will be blocked and countered, so they don't do that, even though in a street fight against an amateur, that is the best strategy.

It's similar to beginner's luck in videogames, where an expert player can't predict the beginner's moves because they play badly, so they lose the first time.

[Jtsummers]

Modern martial arts are also a lot about the sport, not the combat. We had this discussion in my office with a few of us who've done various martial arts over the years (varying degrees of skill, dedication). A lot of martial arts are about the points in competitions. If you land a punch, it's a point. It doesn't matter how strong, it matters how quick. In BJJ competitions, the one who might win a street fight won't necessarily win the match, because they put themselves in disadvantaged positions (opponent gets points) to gain a better position for a submission (not guaranteed to happen, but they win if they do, lose if they don't, it's a gambit).

[bigato]

> Even MMA, which is billed as a sorting of martial art's effectiveness, has substantial rules that greatly limit the fighters. For instance, no groin strikes, leg stomps or eye gouges: all of which are actions I've heard are the first thing you should do in a real fight!

So you've heard. How does that prove it would be effective? - It's very hard to eye gouge. If you miss, you break your finger. If you hit, you most likely just make your opponent look away and grab your hand. - It's not easy to hit a groin strike, nor any strike, and the pain is not that debilitating in a fight, not more than a broken rib or dislocated chin.

If you don't believe me that dirty tricks don't work, you don't need to take my word on it. Take a look at bullshido.com, where you'll find more than enough evidence. Just as one example, take vale tudo fights in Brazil before they were made in a sport with "no-dirty-tricks" rules.

Dirty attacks won't save you from a single fighter, let alone a group of people.

[anbende]

Came here to say this.

I see a lot of high kicks in MMA too. I've been taught to never do that, because if the person grabs the kick (or just takes the hit) and attacks my back leg, that'll be that.

In other words, the back and forth kind of kickboxing that you see is partially a product of the fighters not being allowed to aim for disabling blows.

It's unclear to me what fights would look like and whether any other arts would rise up if the fighter protections were removed. (and I'm not sure I want to find out)

[Jtsummers]

I suspect they'd look like some of the really early UFC fights which were ludicrously brutal, and consequently banned in many US states.

[bigato]

Just like "vale tudo" fights in Brazil before it became a sport.

[jessaustin]

...eye gouges... the first thing you should do in a real fight!

Eh, if one fears for one's life, that's probably an option, but otherwise it seems like a sure ticket to prison. A good reason to avoid all avoidable "real" fights.

[r_smart]

Yeah. One thing you don't learn enough about when you train in martial arts is that you can get royally screwed by the law. If a decent lawyer convinces a judge you're a deadly weapon (and a missing eye might help support that), then it's going to go badly for you. In defense of martial arts training, the general rule is don't ever fight civilians. And of course, the confidence of knowing how to fight leaves you with much less of a feeling of having something to prove.

I worked as a bouncer for awhile, and even though I was the only one who was competent in a fight, I never had to use any of it unless I was cleaning up someone else's mess. They'd all sit there and let things get out of hand before doing something, and then I'd have to go 'fix' it.

[jff]

Hahaha, "my hands are registered as deadly weapons"

[r_smart]

Is that from something? I feel like I should recognize it. I always think of ConAir when this comes up. Clearly the best treatment of the issue possible.

[jff]

It's just the stereotype of the guy who got a black belt from some bullshido trainer: "Oh, I can't fight you, I'm too dangerous, my killer instincts and ninja training means I'd just rip your throat out immediately."

[jessaustin]

Haha possibly relevant:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...

[oblio]

Same for hits to the throat or the back of the neck. Decent chance that the target dies and then you're in a ton more trouble than you started with.

Going for the knees should be safe :)