[fraytormenta]

@dalke, you are asking good questions. Regarding France, Louis X had already abolished slavery much much earlier in the 14th century, motivated by the Bible. Yes, later there was another independent push, but it failed, and it was uncharacteristic of the whole. You can't build an argument on counter-examples. You also need to show that your examples are characteristic of the movement - they are not. I will emphasize that the Bible played a key role, especially in transferring the initiative from thinkers to enforcers. There were other players, but they were a sideshow and they were weak in impact.

hey, this discussion is like way off-topic. I indulged because I can see that we are having a decent enough dialog, but it is also burdensome in this format. You have good questions, they deserve responses. I would like to suggest to switch to another channel of communication, like skypechat or discord or even email. My article was flagged, I will stop checking this page soon. You can initiate contact here with your media of choice: https://truthonly.com/user/profile/1/dima-kotik.html What do you say?

[fraytormenta]

I am quite familiar with the material, and I am convinced you got the entirety of it wrong, like somebody gave you a carefully picked and edited selection of it. Here is the wiki chronology on abolition efforts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline Just a cursory reading of it leaves no room for Englightment as [the main, ed.] explanation - it is clearly a faulty one.

[dalke]

By "the entirety of it wrong" do you mean how you said earlier "Louis X had already abolished slavery much much earlier in the 14th century", only the timeline you point to says "However some cases of slavery continued till the 17th century in some France's Mediterranean harbours, in the Provence"?

As you know from that very timeline, abolition is not a fundamentally Christian idea. The Qin Dynasty and the Xin Dynasty both abolished slavery in China before Jesus was an adult.

As you also know from that same timeline, while the Pope banned enslaving the indigenous peoples of the Americas, he did not ban the enslavement of black Africans. Why is that, do you think, if his decision was based on the Bible?

What I think is missing from your analysis is the step from the "no Christians should be enslaved" to "no one should be enslaved."

The Bible does not prohibit the enslavement of non-Christians. That's why the Pope could have Muslim captives operate galley ships. That's why the Europeans could operate a slave trade of black Africans. That's why the Spanish could enslave the non-Christian indigenous Guanches. (Also from that timeline link you just sent.) That's why Christian theologians for centuries could justify slavery.

What Enlightenment thought added to the mix was the idea of universal rights: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed".

The hypocrisy of slaveholders talking about universal rights of all men was obvious even when it was first written: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal#Slav... . (And no, "their Creator" here refers to the distant creator of Deism, not the Christian God.)

That philosophy changed the moral calculus. People should not be enslaved for the simple reason that they are people.

That's why, quoting again from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism :

> An abolitionist movement only started in the late 18th century, however, when English and American Quakers began to question the morality of slavery. James Oglethorpe was among the first to articulate the Enlightenment case against slavery, banning it in the Province of Georgia on humanist grounds, arguing against it in Parliament, and eventually encouraging his friends Granville Sharp and Hannah More to vigorously pursue the cause.

The "humanist grounds" is the influence of the Enlightenment.

[fraytormenta]

Lady, I have some Russian friends who are convinced electricity was invented in the Soviet Union. This conversation is shaping up in the same line of rhetoric. You need a mental jolt - you are showing twitches of brainwashing. Let'say say I concede your point in the last quote. But, (a) Quakers are Christians, and (b) even if you prove that the movement began apart from the Bible, it does not prove that the movement was not empowered by the Bible and was brought to completion because of the Bible. The person who started the project does not get all the credit for completing it - the majority weighs.

[dalke]

Yes, Louis X abolished slavery in mainland France. That did not apply to the French colonies. If the Bible lead him to believe that slavery was wrong for French Christians, why didn't he also conclude it was wrong for non-French heathens?

There is a huge amount of material on this subject. The things I have mentioned are not an extreme revisionist interpretation of what happened.

I am not interested in transferring this discussion to another location.

Best of wishes,