[cpprototypes]

The message is loud and clear for senior engineers (10+ years experience): startups don't want you. They may say they do, but they really don't. And the message from SV big tech is also clear: we don't want you unless you're in the inner club (Google, FB, Amazon, etc.)

The solution is to avoid these companies. There's a huge world outside SV. These may be known as "boring" (banks, insurance, etc.) but they will not have the stupid ageist algorithm games known as "technical programming interviews". And they respect experience. And they won't have an ageist culture, it will be ok to go home early and be with family.

[Periodic]

If the problem is that you can't get a job if you're not in the club, why not join the club?

I used to work at Google and I did a lot of interviews. I loved when we finally got an experienced engineer in to interview. I could stop asking the toy algorithms questions and actually talk about design.

But maybe they only want to hire fresh college grads? The company is sorely lacking in experience. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason they can't find experienced engineers to interview is that everyone with experience who is qualified to work at Google either works there already or doesn't want to.

Maybe you're in that camp of not wanting to work at Google. That's fine. I enjoyed it for a while but it wasn't for me. Just having it on my resume has opened a lot of doors.

[gedy]

Interviewing at Google a few years ago (with some experience) was not positive - the interviewer actively avoided talking anything about design or systems, and insisted on asking me brain teasers about weighing boxes of pennies, etc. Was a stupid waste of time for me and turned me off from Google totally.

[gohrt]

How many years ago? Google famously publicly renounced those ~5 years ago.

[gedy]

True, was about 5-6 years ago.

[ruste]

I think I'd actually prefer that...

[gedy]

It wasn't just the type of questions, was the whole experience - I did answer, then then interviewer insisted I could do it in one fewer step, and would not proceed or assist until I came up with a better answer. Then time was up, and he answered no questions of mine. Emailing the recruiter to ask if this was expected or if there was another role and received no replies back. Sorry, but to hell with working for Google after that...

Bear in mind at the time I had 8 years experience in non-trivial roles, including some mgmt and architecture, and they were the ones who reached out to me.

[mgkimsal]

> and they were the ones who reached out to me.

I had a google recruiter call, we spoke, then set up a longer interview. I asked about pay, and was told they don't talk about it until after an interview, which meant travel and time away from current projects. It's not that I couldn't do it at all, but it meant some schedule shuffling and I wanted a ballpark - just a ballpark or ...minimum floor. She wouldn't give me any info.

I then asked another question which she didn't know the answer to ("no one's ever asked that before!") and told me she'd have an answer in a couple days. That was ... Aug 2013? I'm still waiting.

I told the story before and someone said "well, that's no way to get a job!" as I described my questioning the recruiter. "I didn't apply for a job - they called me - they can answer a couple of my questions if they want me to take time out to come visit them".

[rubberstamp]

can you please share what that question was? just curious. I've read many other articles about candidates having had similar experiences. Its one of the reasons i dont like Google as a company

[bpchaps]

Interviewing at google was the absolute worst experience I've ever had over two weeks:

First interview was a cold call from a bored sounding engineer-turned-recruiter. The guy asked me some questions and some I didn't know at the time, but since my experience was pretty solid, they scheduled an interview anyway.

They forgot the first interview. No call, no email, no answer from emails, etc. It's not a first, so I took it as, "shit happens".

They forgot the second interview.

The third interview finally happened, but the engineer on the other end of the phone was ~extremely~ uninterested from the beginning of the call. How in the hell am I supposed to be excited for the interview or even working with someone like that?

To make matters worse, all three interviews required me to leave work early. Because that's obviously not suspicious. Never got a call or email or apology after that ordeal.

"Welcome to Google, we hate our lives, want to hate yours, too?".

[ruste]

That does sound pretty miserable. I'd be upset too.

[quantumhobbit]

If the problem is that you can't get a job if you're not in the club, why not join the club?

Problem is the club doesn't seem to want any new members above a certain age.

[SomeCallMeTim]

"A certain age"? I "joined" the club by getting a gig at Amazon at 46. Before that I'd never worked at any of the big tech companies. I also get interest from startups all the time, but from what I can tell they don't want employees above a certain salary, not a certain age.

I don't think it's age but attitude and skills that distinguish people who can get "in the club." If the attitude is "SHOW ME THE MONEY" when Google is well known for paying way above market rates, or if the attitude is "WHY SHOULD I KNOW THESE CS PROBLEMS!?", when it's well known that Google cares about those problems...well, then no, you can't join the club.

At this point I've interviewed at Google but turned them down when they could only offer me what sounded like a glorified accounting programming position (in the Boulder office, which doesn't have as many teams as in Mountain View). I might have fun working at Google on the right team, but I have other options (including Amazon) that also pay well and are very attractive for other reasons, so why not?

[mgkimsal]

> Problem is the club doesn't seem to want any new members above a certain age.

Which is precisely the problem that was being pointed out earlier - how meta! :)

[vonmoltke]

Despite my shitty experience last time, I would be willing to give Google another chance (as long as it isn't in California). They've decided to ignore me.

[kmonsen]

pm or email me if you want some help [e-mail]

Also I have worked for Google in NYC and London so feel free to ask any questions.

[linkregister]

Since when does Google fail to ask toy algorithms question of senior engineers?

I'm not being snarky; everything I've ever read, heard, and experienced with Google interviews is that these trivia algorithms questions compose the majority of the on-site interviews. [1] [2]

You appear to be different, but please don't claim your interviewing style as representative of even 1/4 of Google interviewers.

> [maybe] everyone with experience who is qualified to work at Google either works there already or doesn't want to.

If memorizing algorithms is a necessary condition of a senior engineer being qualified to work at Google, that is fine. But it is disingenuous to claim otherwise, since clearly many have found it is algorithm memorization that has been the gatekeeper from getting an offer at Google, not non-abstract large systems design, linux systems internals knowledge, concurrent and asynchronous programming, etc.

[1] http://www.nakov.com/blog/2007/12/27/overqualified-to-work-i... "Trust me, a 15 years old schoolboy who is a good programming contestant (e.g. some of the Bulgarian National champions) can pass these questions without having any experience in commercial software engineering. I expected more software engineering questions about software design and architecture, large-scale databases and information systems, Internet applications, information security, parallel programming, threads, synchronization, development process, software quality, testing, life-cycle, software project management, agile development, etc. but the interviewers didn’t even mention any of these topics. I applied for senior position and it was normal to expect serious software engineering and technical questions, but this didn’t happen."

[2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Interview/Google-Senior-Software-E... (the typical response is some variation of "they asked me a question that was similar to a problem in Cracking the Coding Interview while not offering a single question about my previous accomplishments or potential culture fit."

[kamaal]

Most start ups really want people in early 20's, Unmarried without responsibilities, who have a very idealistic view of the world and are ready to fail, without any financial profit in return.

>>stupid ageist algorithm games known as "technical programming interviews"

Unless you are in "exam mode" all the time. Spending away all your life in the pursuit of the interview preparation. This kind of interview preparedness isn't possible anyway.

[jasoncchild]

^yes. when an early-stage startup (seed or just hit series a) emphasizes that they are a 'family' this is not quite accurate. yes, caring and support abounds, but its not so much a family as a group of friends...and like every group of friends when you can't hang at the bar until closing a few nights a week or spend a weekend 'adventure camping' the group just stops inviting you. quickly you lose sync, don't get the in-jokes and most importantly you lose value in the eyes of the group. 'oh, she/he used to be cool, but they just don't hang anymore'.

when it comes to work this has a very destructive effect. team-building exercises that require people to choose between spending time with their families and participating are, in my opinion, at the least cruel and at the most nefariously aimed at driving a culture wedge between you and the company.

your children only grow up once. no second chances.

your elderly parents deterioration and eventual death only happens once. no second chances.

most of us will work the majority of our lives, occupying several roles at more than one company. in my mind this amounts to numerous 'chances' to do things better/differently/more carefully/more thoughtfully/ etc etc etc.

[mholmes680]

To his credit, I had a (rather eccentric) founder in NYC ask me if I planned on having kids anytime soon as the first question of his interview - after all the tech questions from people under him.

When I said yeah, and I was planning on commuting from NJ, he said "well I don't want to break up a family, so see you later" <end of interview>. I thought it was rude at the time, but here I am 3 years later and damn if he wasn't right. Dodged a bullet that only he saw was coming right at me.

[mandevil]

I'm pretty sure that in the US that question is illegal to ask an interviewee. It might have been beneficial in your case, but is still totally illegal because it is one of the ways the sexual discrimination in hiring propagates.

[dragonwriter]

> I'm pretty sure that in the US that question is illegal to ask an interviewee.

It is not. (Like most questions that people think are illegal to ask in interviews, its merely ill-advised to ask because it asks specifically about something on which it is illegal to discriminate in hiring, and asking about it in an interview is -- on its own, weak, but still -- potential evidence of its use in a hiring decision.)

(Cargo cult HR helps perpetuate the myth that these things are illegal to ask.)

[mandevil]

Okay, it might not necessarily be illegal in the general case, but in the specific case described by the OP, asking that question, getting an answer, and then saying "See you later <eom>" makes it clear that that was discrimination in the hiring process based on family responsibilities, no?

[dmoy]

It's not illegal but it opens many very wide doors for lawsuits.

[voltagex_]

That might be the first example I've heard of positive cargo-culting.

[fibonachos]

As a long time independent consultant looking for a regular 9 to 5 job, my recent interview experiences would be consistent with this statement. After a series of phone interviews and a 4 hour on-site, all of which yielded positive feedback, I was told the position went to someone "more passionate" about the company mission.

After reflecting a bit on what I may have done or said wrong, it hit me. This place had the typical startup perks: catered lunches, stocked kitchen (with plenty of energy drinks), and a younger demographic (I'm 40). My conclusion is that "More Passionate" is actually code for "willing to work 14 hour days."

[jpindar]

And what if I'm past my 20's, but still unmarried with no responsibilities and I love pulling all nighters and am willing to work long hours for relatively low pay? There's no real way to tell potential employers that, is there?

[vvanders]

That seems to be common in other high-churn areas of the industry as well, ex: GameDev.

[susan_hall]

I have faced something similar. Though I have 14 years experience with technologies that are suppose to be in demand (Ruby On Rails, NodeJS) I have had a very difficult time finding work this year. It's certainly more difficult now than in 2012 or 2013.

[cpprototypes]

I had no issue interpreting the likely intended meaning of this: This person is saying they have been keeping up with new technologies the past 14 years (such as RoR, NodeJS now, but years ago Java held that spot, etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity helps here especially these days when typing on a mobile phone can easily lead to typos and mistakes.

[altano]

Neither Ruby on Rails nor NodeJS has existed for 14 years.

[kafkaesq]

She was simplifying; most likely she meant:

"I have 14 years of commercial experience overall, with recent emphasis in high-demand technologies like RoR and Node.js"

[jgroch]

yet FORTRAN and COBOL do

and so do reams of magnetic tape around the Beltway

who will maintain old code? you?

[MOARDONGZPLZ]

The poster specifically mentioned 14 years with these technologies. The fact that there are technologies 14+ years old is irrelevant to this point.

[logfromblammo]

You can parse that statement in a more favorable way. She has spent 14 years acquiring experience with relatively new (or newly popular) technologies.

So 14 years ago, she would have worked with a technology that is now slightly more than 14 years old--I'd guess C#, which is now 16 years old. Maybe 9 years ago, she worked with Ruby on Rails, which is now 10 years old. Maybe 6 years ago, she started on Node.js, which is now 7 years old. Even now, she is likely keeping an eye on HN to see what would be most useful to learn next.

In other words, she has been continuously jogging on the technology treadmill, rather than staking out a niche to ride out until retirement.

This is likely the only way to avoid moving to progressively stodgier and less interesting companies as you age. The young and hip companies use the young and hip tech stacks. Established companies wait to see whether the new thing can cut costs or increase revenues before migrating, and part of that equation is not paying a premium for specialist developers that are currently in high demand.

[auggierose]

Replace "with" with "including" and all the strange comments to this post evaporate. Every experienced programmer knows what is meant by this. By the way, anyone experienced picks up Node.js in a week.

[bfung]

It's interesting to see so many comments on an imprecise wording of a sentence.

As humans, people can parse this sentence and infer the thinking and meaning behind it.

The related part of the problem with this the difficulty in finding a position is that computers and compilers cannot infer meaning - the statement must be exact (not precise, not accurate, exact). And for a programmer, making such logical gaffes is detrimental to speed and quality of a particular piece of work.

Could be unfair in assessing one as such, but a line of reasoning here does exist that I believe to be testable and valid. And life isn't fair.

Perhaps a piece to help you in finding a position better is to form the idea first, then reword it for the right audience (for programmers, be exacting, don't leave room for interpretation).

[mgkimsal]

do you think it's anything to do with the name "susan"?

[jgroch]

I don't know why you've been grayed out.

Skills are skills. Even if you don't have the latest iPhone or Android flavor TangoUniformVoo 8.9.

Considering that i'm a bit rusty (no allusion intended), if i'm certified in Sun's Java 1.5/5.0, can i still program in OracleJava, and what about Google'sJava? ....Though maybe it takes a little bit of elbow grease and sharp elbows to push the script-kiddies currently in HRManagement aside.

[eitland]

>> Though I have 14 years experience with technologies that are suppose to be in demand (Ruby On Rails, NodeJS)

> I don't know why you've been grayed out.

Because we oldtimers know that ruby on rails and especially node.js hasn't existed for 14years. Ruby on rails had it's first stable release about 11 years ago.

Actually used to be a recruiter joke/meme : young rails wizard wanted, minimum 10 years experience (back before 2005 :-)

That said, I didn't downvote, but I suspect this is the reason.

Edit: removed this, I might have misread the post as pointed out by others -> (not being careful with facts, massive hyperbole)

[reitanqild]

Joke or mistake?

[serge2k]

> stupid ageist algorithm games known as "technical programming interviews"

I think there are problems with the current model, but is ageism really one of them?

[potatolicious]

To a large degree yeah - performance in "stupid algorithm games" is basically perfectly inversely correlated with "years since undergrad CS courses".

[FT_intern]

It's more of "years since last studied algorithms". University algorithms classes are useless for these types of interviews for the most part when 90% of the focus is on the proofs.

Most people I know spent time studying by themselves outside of class/class material.