[ledjon]

I would argue that most of these Postgres "flaws" are actually advantages over MySQL when you look at them holistically rather than the very specific Uber use-case.

Postgres's MVCC is superior (can rollback DDL, can add indexes online, can have open read transactions for a VERY long time without impacting other parts of the system)

Postgres supports many types of indexes, not just b-tree. One thing it doesn't have is clustered b-tree indexes... which is really what MySQL does that makes it somewhat "better." I wonder how Uber adds an index to a table that already has 1B+ rows in it with mysql?

Postgres have WAL level replication is a better guarantee of actually replicating the data correctly. I cannot tell you how many times I've had to tell my boss that the "mysql replicas might be slightly out of sync with the master" because of various replication issues. The way it handles triggers and scheduled events alone is garbage and can very easily break replication and/or silently cause inconsistency.

As for data corruption, if there is a bug that causes corruption, then there is a bug. I don't think that is a fundamental design flaw as implied in this article. You shouldn't rely on 1/2 assed replication design to accidentally save you from the data corruption bug. There are many downsides to the design MySQL has that are simply not listed here.

I have been both a professional MySQL administrator as well as Postgresql (as well as SQL Server and many NoSQL engines). Many of these Postgres issues are only issues at crazy huge scale, and I would say at that point you probably want to move away from relational anyway. MySQL has its own very large set of problems at scale as well.

It sounds like Uber is using MySQL as just a data bucket with primary keys ("Schemaless") which is good -- because you can't alter tables to save your life with MySQL.

At the end of the data each developer/business needs to use what works for them, but I would really shy away from pointing to this article as a linchpin in the "MySQL vs. Postgres" war (if there even is such a thing.)

[busterarm]

Can't agree with this post enough.

I find their whole writeup to be terribly myopic. When they started their service, Postgres was almost certainly the right choice for what they were building and their MySQL setup was not. Now Postgres is less effective for them.

These kind of tech switches are _inevitable_ if you're making the right choices for your organization.

This strikes me as very similar to the article where Twitter ditched Rails. The focus should be inward... how they chose a tool that didn't support their use case and how they solved the problem, but instead they're about the flaws (that aren't really flaws) of the tool.

It's always the craftsman.

[stubish]

While the article is discussing PostgreSQL vs MySQL, Uber's actual win seems to be from switching their data model to their sharded Schemaless key=value store. I expect they would have got this win no matter what backend they chose for Schemaless.

[_Codemonkeyism]

"1B+ rows in it with mysql?"

Been there, really no fun.

[midom]

As long as you can shard (across multiple instances, or even within same instance, to avoid B-Tree latching), 1B+ rows within MySQL is piece of cake.

Also, MySQL* is getting LSM-Tree support lately, which makes high performance data ingestion combined with OLTP workload quite feasible.

* https://github.com/facebook/mysql-5.6/tree/webscalesql-5.6.2...

[_Codemonkeyism]

"I wonder how Uber adds an index to a table that already has 1B+ rows in it with mysql?"

"As long as you can shard "

Not sure how sharding helps with 1B+ tables when adding indices, care to share?

[Swannie]

This is: "Split the index in your application code."

And then do your joins, in your application code.

[fasteo]

Percona to the rescue [1]. Works flawlessly, at least in our case.

[1] https://www.percona.com/doc/percona-toolkit/2.1/pt-online-sc...

[barrkel]

Am there right now, it's not really a problem - you just have to plan your schema changes and use Percona OST.

[maximegarcia]

https://github.com/soundcloud/lhm

Saved my life a few time :)

[_Codemonkeyism]

Thanks!

[Groxx]

Also been there. Percona Toolkit works fine (though it's not load-aware enough, so we changed the backfill logic).

Plus, in 5.7, there are a fair number of online-DDL changes, and adding indexes is (usually) one of them.

[jobu]

> It sounds like Uber is using MySQL as just a data bucket with primary keys

They have a couple posts about "Schemaless", but I still don't understand why they used MySQL as the data store instead of something like Cassandra. ( https://eng.uber.com/schemaless-part-one/ ) From that post it looks like they basically built a no-sql database on top of a relational database.

The only reason given was operational trust ( "If we get paged at 3 am when the datastore is not answering queries and takes down the business, would we have the operational knowledge to quickly fix it?" ). The project took nearly a year to roll out, and in that time the operation knowledge could surely be trained, hired, or contracted.

[smoodles]

Operating Cassandra at the scale that Uber is going to require is going to be painful and as operationally draining as MySQL if not more.

There are really not a large number of options here anymore with the departure of FoundationDB from the market. CockroachDB might be an option in a few years, though I'm still confused why they are moving towards a SQL-ish vs key-value interface...

[nickpsecurity]

"departure of FoundationDB from the market"

Pissed me off so much. Only thing close to Google's F0 RDBMS on the market, at a reasonable rate, and the beginning of a good offer to enterprises. Then, "poof!" It's a good example of why I tell companies to not put anything critical into something from a startup. If they do, better have a synchronized, backup option tested and ready to go.

"why they are moving towards a SQL-ish vs key-value interface..."

That's easy: most databases and buyers use SQL. Key-value is preferred by startups & non-critical, side projects in big companies you see here a lot but aren't representative of most of the market. Need first-rate, SQL support. I think EnterpriseDB shows that it's also a good idea to clone a market leader's features onto alternative database.

[ngrilly]

> Only thing close to Google's F0 RDBMS

Did you mean F1 (instead of F0)?

[nickpsecurity]

Yeah, yeah. I keep getting the 0 and 1 mixed up. Thank you.

[ddorian43]

What dbs would you suggest in their scale ? that are easier operationally than cassandra ?

[MikeKusold]

I was at MesosCon and ended up talking to some Uber people. They are currently using Cassandra in prod. I can't speak as to why they use MySQL the way they do though.

[verma7]

I gave a talk at MesosCon about how we (are starting to) run Cassandra across multiple datacenters at Uber (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2jFLx8NNro, https://schd.ws/hosted_files/mesosconna2016/60/mesoscon-uber...).

[mandeepj]

Thanks for sharing this. I was wondering - the limitations they have listed could be easily overcome with cassandra

[dastbe]

So arguably, they are using mysql as a storage engine rather than as a database.

They don't explicitly answer the question "Why didn't you use InnoDB/WiredTiger/etc. for your dataplane?", but you get the idea that they were very happy with the specific characteristics of MySQL for their use case and so they built on top of it. It also sounds like they had some deadlines (specifically, the death of their datastore) that they had to meet :).

[carapace]

I had that same thought, that the time spent rolling their own system could be better spent just learning some existing good-enough thing.

A great way to get familiar with something is to be the folks who write it. It's also much more fun to design and implement something new than to just learn some other fella's software. I'm guilty of this myself.

But I've started to remind myself that "somebody else has had this problem" and there's probably a good enough solution out there already.

Put another way, is what you are trying to do really so novel? In the case of Uber's infrastructure, you would have to talk for awhile to convince me that they really really need something not-off-the-shelf.

[mdani]

IMHO some possible reasons of not using Cassandra could be the following.

You can't use Cassandra if you need atomic increments (yes, they're included but painfully slow due to several trips required to satisfy PAXOS).

Also there are no transaction rollbacks (atomic batches always go one way - forward).

You may hit GC pauses if the JVM is not tuned properly.

If the use case involves its of deletes then tombstone related issues need to be considered.

[stubish]

I wouldn't have trusted Cassandra back then either. 0.9, 1.0 or maybe 1.2 was reaching sufficient maturity to actually be recommended. Modern Cassandra has come leaps and bounds, with the 2.x series finally becoming stable this year and just recently 3.0.x finally getting blessed by the community as stable enough for production. And ScyllaDB hot on their heels.

[fjordan]

Tools such as the percona toolkit (https://www.percona.com/software/mysql-tools/percona-toolkit) provide the ability to perform safe and performant online alters for MySQL. Behind the scenes it actually creates a new table with the new schema and utilizes triggers to apply writes to the new table as the original data is being copied. Once it completes the table is renamed and the triggers are removed.

Percona also recommends using this tool to safely perform alters for any Galera-based replication product (Percona XtraDB Cluster, MariaDB Galera Cluster, etc.)

[markoot]

I have used this tool many times in production, and in accordance with advice about avoiding foreign keys.

It only failed catastrophically, causing a critical production incident, twice.

Each time took dozens of engineer hours to vet in advance, thus costing thousands of dollars.

Online DDL changes and indexing with pg cost us... basically nothing, and never caused downtime.

My and Pg each have their place... but if you want to modify large tables, MySQL is almost certainly the wrong tool for the job.

[verelo]

While this is true, i don't personally think Percona tools alone makes these changes 'safe'. You can create scenarios where performance is so degraded that you introduce replication delay or service interruptions (and yes the tools have ways to work around that, but it's a significant challenge to tune this correctly on production), data can be lost during the table switch over, and the complication of managing a product / database with a table in an extended migration is very difficult.

This space is far from done, until we can change data structures on the fly...we're going to find there to be a constant struggle between schema and schema-less and neither side will be right or wrong.

Solution: Quantum states; We suspect every possible scenario is happening already, so we should just migrate our database to the appropriate quantum state, where the data is in the structure we desire. Sounds insane, it probably is.

[spotman]

Your absolutely correct that it is not risk free, however, if you do not use foreign keys (which no huge scale mysql install like schemaless does) and you know what your doing (read: calculating the expected load, adding throttles and sanity checks, backups, etc) online alters are extremely feasible with mysql and folks have been doing them for years.

I know first hand shops like FB use a similar method in production.

Also, big note, the whole point of "schemaless" (And other things, like fb's friend feed architecture) is that you don't make schema changes.

[chucky_z]

online schema change is absolutely riddled with crippling bugs if you use foreign keys. Just a heads up, we've had to basically take everything it does and make an in-house version. The idea and execution are great, when it actually works.

[barrkel]

Foreign keys are a major problem in MySQL if you do lots of writes, especially bulk writes. As is auto-increment (table-lock for load data infile, yay!).

We allocate our own IDs, and disable foreign keys for bulk loading.

[madhusudhan000]

Well, for one thing, if they say schemaless, then you are using the wrong tool for the job.

Sure postgres has JSONB (comparing to mongo db), Key value store such as HStore, but they do well if they fit on one machine. The moment you hit that scale you have to realize that there are tools specifically built for this.

There is the phoenix project https://phoenix.apache.org/ that salesforce is using for scaling. Definitely worth a try.

But again, the title of the article sounded nothing more than a rant to me.

[peatmoss]

The term schemaless within Uber is more of a product name. It's kind of a joke with many of the engineers, that it's anything but devoid of schema.

[grogers]

Support for online schema changes has been getting a lot better in recent releases of MySQL. No idea if it is totally bulletproof right now though, we are still in the "stone ages" of doing failover based schema changes, not even pt-online-schema-change.

It seems that the replication arguments in the post are pretty weak (migrating to 9.4+ to allow heterogeneous versions would still have less downtime than migrating to MySQL), but clustered indexes seem like a huge win for their use case of updating only a subset of each row. Whether that is reason enough to totally ditch postgres, I don't know.

[carterehsmith]

I just want to add that newer versions of MySQL can add indexes online. In fact, it looks like all DDL can be done online, even though some if it (like adding a column) may require the table to be rebuilt, which can take time.

Note that the master is still available for read and write during this. Replicas will lag though.

[njs12345]

From the MySQL docs: http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.7/en/alter-table.html

> Updates and writes to the table that begin after the ALTER TABLE operation begins are stalled until the new table is ready, then are automatically redirected to the new table without any failed updates.

While the master may be technically up for writes during this period, it's not much a goer if your table is large and has any write traffic at all, as anything writing will stall for what may be an extended period.

[carterehsmith]

It should never be an extended period. Everyone everywhere will advise to keep your transactions as short as possible.

Sure this is sometimes boring additional work - eg you don't delete 1M records with one statement, you break it into 1,000 statements each deleting 1,000 records.

Sucks, but keeps your db and your users happy.

BTW this is true for PostgreSQL and MySQL and Oracle and every db that allows concurrent DML.

[njs12345]

No, the migration itself will cause transactions to stall.

For example, if you have a table with 1M user records, and you run a migration to add a column in MySQL, then any updates to the table will be stalled while the table is rewritten to add the extra column (which may take a while). This is independent of how many records it touches - even if the transaction only touched 1 record and would take 10ms to execute, if the migration takes 10 minutes it may be stalled for up to 10 minutes.

In Postgres you can add a nullable column, and the table will only be locked for a very short amount of time, independent of the size of the table.

[ComodoHacker]

>can have open read transactions for a VERY long time without impacting other parts of the system

Unless you're on a replica.

[return0]

> the very specific Uber use-case

Other than the "schemaless" layer, the issues mentioned are fairly common.