[Kenji]

They democratically elected to basically jump off a cliff

Scare-mongering. If you have to be in the EU to be able to trade, yes, to survive, then it is time to destroy the EU once and for all. No single entity should be able to terrorize the citizens of a nation state like that.

[deathcakes]

Straw man - no one is saying we won't survive but you would have to be monumentally dim to not perceive that what has just happened, and what will continue to happen in Britain as a result of this decision will be orders of magnitude worse than the alternative - at least in the short to medium term. I can't predict the long term future and it may well be that the UK somehow manages to come out of this with more than the south west still part of it but the path there will involve a lot of suffering.

[Kenji]

Straw man - no one is saying we won't survive

He said jumping off the cliff. That is literally just saying the Brits won't survive. Besides, England will be able to make a trade deal with China (something the EU doesn't manage to do). Medium- to longterm, the benefits for the British people will be vast - and I'm not even starting to argue about political independence.

[deathcakes]

Jumping off a cliff != certain death, but I guess thats splitting hairs. You seem very confident in the face of expert opinion and evidence in front of you. Does the fact that the people who have masterminded this spectacle seem to have no plan for what happens next worry you in the slightest?

I notice you use England, possibly a mistake but it seems this is the underlying attitude of the Leave vote - England is better off by itself. Which strikes me as frankly hilarious given how much we have to offer the world besides grumpiness, self deprecation and financial services...

[Kenji]

Well, the plan for what happens next depends in a large part on negotiations with the EU - who doesn't seem to care about negotiating if there is no clear wakeup call and time limit (like 2 years after taking article 50). The vote was a first step and clear signal that the British people are unhappy with how the EU treats them.

I meant to say Britain so yes it was an error. The tensions between England and Scotland (and to a lesser degree Gibraltar) are unfortunate, especially that the leave vote increased them again. Same with northern Ireland tensions. I have no opinion on whether or not they are supposed to stay together since this seems to be a problem rooted deeply in culture that I might not be able to fully comprehend.

[joakleaf]

Congrats with the new trade deal Britain will make with China!

How about the trade deal Britain will make with the EU which is currently its main trade partner (both imports and exports)?

[patrickk]

> No single entity should be able to terrorize the citizens of a nation state like that.

Talk about hyperbole. Plenty of countries like Switzerland or Norway don't feel terrorised by the EU, instead exist peacefully alongside it. Plenty more want to join voluntarily.

Another fact that seems completely ignored- you can't put a price on deliberately creating links so that European powers don't tear each other to pieces, just like they have done for thousands of years. The EU deserves credit for minimising the likelihood of devastating war, which has happened for much of recorded history in Europe.

[hjrnunes]

European wars, particularly the nastier ones are born out of hegemony and counter-hegemony. The EU was bound to be an hegemonic construct dominated by the country that could dominate it - which basically means France, Germany or Great Britain. Turned out to be Germany.

The utopia of a united Europe is what caused all of the devastating wars - whether it was under the guise of a Spanish empire, a Napoleonic empire or a German reich. Whether it is done by military, political or economic power, it always backfires.

We are different people. What we have in common is mostly Christian religion and Christian morals. Or rather the purified, distilled secularised version of it called "humanism" now.

But some visionary always comes with this radical new idea (actually a thousand years old) that we are somehow all the same and should all be in some sort of union. And it always ends up in war.

[KaiserPro]

no one is terrorising anyone.

Apart from the campaigners on each side of the referendum.

Basically the whole thing descended into "FUCKING IMMIGRANTS TAKING YOUR JOBS, THATS WHY YOU DON'T HAVE PUBLIC SERVICES"

and on the other "YOU WON'T HAVE A JOB IF WE LOOSE THE EU. YOU WILL DIE OF AIDS"

Sadly people have been conditioned by various parts of the media to just see immigration as the reason for public service cuts. Not stopping to ask them selves, who makes the decision to cut the funding...

And this is entirely the fault of the political class, who wanted to mask cutting public services to pay for tax cuts for the middle class.

And now we have this right fucking mess, which will take many years to un pick, and I suspect will lead back exactly where we were before, just paying more, and having less influence.

[Kenji]

Tbh I see the vote as a vote for democracy and self-determination. The immigrant question is secondary. The EU applies enormous political pressure all across the European continent and it's getting really uncomfortable, especially if the vast majority votes for something that is legally binding and your government can't act on it because of EU pressure (which happened here).

[KaiserPro]

You see it as that, because I suspect you've taken a more than casual interest.

The concept of sovereignty is secondary in most cases. A lot of the votes "up north" were based on the assumption that public services are shit because of immigration.