[lossolo]

I just watched his talk. He lost. He fought that he can avoid crack in his party and anti-eu members will be pleased if he make this move - referendum. Then he thought he will get what he wants from EU and then all citizens will vote remain. He was wrong on all this points. He is the biggest looser in this situation and he really knows it.

[sz4kerto]

> He is the biggest looser in this situation

Except he isn't, really -- he loses his political position, but he and his family won't be existentially affected by what's going to happen, as opposed to probably tens of millions of people all around Europe.

[monk_e_boy]

A lot of hate for him came from his inherited wealth. He had no idea how austerity was hitting people. Everyone I know who works has given up going on holiday, buying cars, buying nice food. We're all sick of it. There is plenty of money in the UK and watching a rich PM tell us to tighten our belts.... psh.

[simonbarker87]

Really!? Everyone I know who works is very pleased with how the economy has recovered, many friends under 30 have bought a house (without parental help), many are nearing 40% tax bracket and my Facebook feed is full of people going on holiday. Not sure which UK you are living in but the one I'm in is pretty nice - well it was, until this vote.

And before you say I'm in some kind of elite I run a small factory in the north east of England and even my lower paid members of staff go on holiday once a year.

[IshKebab]

> many friends under 30 have bought a house (without parental help)

Wow really? Do you live up north? Or have rich friends?

I mean I think the UK economy is in pretty good shape (especially compared to the rest of the world), but let's not pretend that houses are remotely affordable.

[toyg]

>north east of England

Property market here in the north is nowhere as crazy as in London. Which is why the constant moans about it in national media are extremely grating for us (it's actually hard to flog houses, over here).

[gambiting]

You can buy a house in the North for 100-200k without any problems, and saving 10k for a deposit is not exactly difficult if you have a job. I'm in the same situation as OP, live in UK, everyone I know is quite well off and the economy is doing very well for us(or was until today).

[monk_e_boy]

I think I'm one of those rare people who lurk on hackernews, but who's friends are normal working types. Nurses, janitors, teachers, teaching assistants, plumbers, electricians, carpetenters, fisher men. None of these people are on your facebook feed, or hackernews comment section. These are the people who have had enough of all this crap. We're not stupid. We're just poor.

[DanBC]

> Not sure which UK you are living in

The UK where waiting times for A&E are at the longest they've been for years; where waiting times for NHS consultant-led treatment are at the longest they've been since they introduced maximum wait times; where there are no in-patient MH beds for adults (seriously, just last week all adult inpatient MH beds in the country were occupied. (This significantly increases risk of suicide)); where the rates of suicide are increasing (after many years of decline) (and we know that economic decline increases rates of suicide).

[junto]

That's nothing to do with the EU. That's years of neglect, lack of investment and poor management by a series of UK governments both Tory and Labour.

If we want a good health service and good schools then we need to invest. There problem is the only way that is going to happen is if we borrow the money (Labour tried that - no thanks), or you raise taxes. Raising taxes political suicide, which no party wants to do, especially the Tories. Then it needs to actually be managed wisely with a clear plan of operational action for a longer period than five years between each national election. These things take time, and each time we swap leadership they throw out the plan and start from scratch. It's like a constant series of pivots in no particular direction.

[DanBC]

No, I know it's nothing to do with the EU.

That's the point - people were told by Brexit that leaving the EU would free up £350m per week, and the money would be spent on NHS.

I know that was a lie, you know it was a lie, but many people believed them.

The Sustainability and Transformation Plans were looking rough before brexit. I dread to think what they'll be like now.

[pas]

People are more likely to post (and like) holiday pictures than we have no money pictures.

[simonbarker87]

You still need the money to go on holiday in the first place and the OPs point was that working people in the UK can't afford to go on holiday.

[pas]

We live in a world where a few percent GDP drop is a recession. It does not mean _everyone_ suddenly lacks money to buy a plane ticket. But when a few percent means tens of millions of people, I don't really think we should base our (economic and other kind of) policies on some dude's Facebook stream.

There are working people who will just get laid off, because they have been hired to - let's say - coordinate a "shared service center" enlargement, but now that won't happen, because the company will instead freeze every expansive project in the UK due to the suddenly increased uncertainty, and that guy (gal) will probably won't go on holiday, though he (she) will have a lot of free time to like the holiday posts of others on Facebook.

[lkiernan]

FWIW you don't, the level of debt some people have is staggering.

[keithpeter]

What does your factory manufacture?

PS: Good luck with it, lovely part of the country.

[jacquesm]

Better prepare for some more belt tightening, whether the PM tells you to or not that's the direction this will go in now.

[tonyedgecombe]

Yes, whatever you think about the debate, now is probably a time for saving.

[lostlogin]

>A lot of hate for him came from his inherited wealth. He had no idea how austerity was hitting people.

The later not the former. You can inherit wealth and retain humanity.

[dragonmum]

The EU's common agricultural policy was actively favoring and subsidizing large EU based multinationals and blocking entry into the market by small scale farmers and producers in developing countries. Seems to me like a huge new market called "the UK" just opened up for genuine and fair trade. So overall, this is probably good for hundreds of millions of people around the world.

[viraptor]

The policies don't have to change. It's not like the UK severs all the connections with everyone. Multinationals will stay and ensure the new policies and trade treaties allow them to continue.

[ivan_gammel]

Isn't UK going to protect its own businesses and jobs? Not everyone is pro-trade in Leave camp, afaik.

[tonyedgecombe]

Yes, the UK still grows half it's own food, those businesses will be lobbying hard.

[emp_zealoth]

Just what. Poland pretty much had only small scale farmers (Apart from some post-communist behemoths that were gangrenic) when it joined the EU. Our farmers have never been better or stronger, 15 years ago going to a countryside was like time travel to 1950. Now the countryside actually is a place to live. Same in Austria or Italy. The cooperatives there function properly. What are you on about?

[dragonmum]

Please read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy

The Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) is the agricultural policy of the European Union. It implements a system of agricultural subsidies and other programmes. It has been repeatedly criticised for its cost (€57.8 billion in 2014)[1] and its environmental and humanitarian effects, including raising food prices and stalling development in poorer countries by preventing them from exporting food to the EU.

[keithpeter]

"a huge new market called "the UK" just opened up for genuine and fair trade"

That would be fun to see. How do these small farmers get stuff onto the shelves of Tesco and Lidl (while the latter are still trading here)?

Room for some intermediation?

[YeGoblynQueenne]

At last UK farmers can sell their top quality fruit and vegetables to the rest of the world.

[StrangeWhiff]

Not without trade agreements that may take years to negotiate.

Also, UK farmers get over half their income from EU subsidies. So many of them are going to go bankrupt unless they get bailed out/supported by the government.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11967049/Brexit...

[YeGoblynQueenne]

Sorry, I thought my sarcasm was evident. To anyone who's tasted UK-grown fruit and veg, it must be.

[keithpeter]

Its a Tory government, of course they will be supported. Green wellies &c.

Manufacturing not so much.

[junto]

There is nobody left to pick it. We are about to throw out ask the Romanians and Bulgarians who do that hard graft, because no Brit will do the hard work for little money.

[benevol]

> but he and his family won't be existentially affected by what's going to happen

I'm pretty sure that he actually did think of his children.

[actuator]

With emerging talk of Irish unification and Scottish independence after the referendum, some legacy he is going to leave behind.

[tehwalrus]

Irish unification would be a silver lining to this awfulness.

[anonymousDan]

As someone from Ireland I'm really not sure I could be bothered dealing with all the shit that could entail. Would prefer if they just went independent and joined the EU as a separate country.

[tonyedgecombe]

It would be rather ironic if after all the troubles the North said they wanted to reunify and the South said fuck off.

[jacquesm]

Something similar happened in Belgium a while ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Belgium

It's still pretty much an unresolved situation at the present, in the longer term it could go either way.

[matthewmacleod]

Unfortunately Northern Ireland doesn't have the economy or infrastructure to realistically function as an independent state at this point. You never know about the future, but it's likely not on the table any time soon.

[Grishnakh]

Why does it need to be large to function independently? There are a bunch of far smaller nations in the EU/Europe: Luxembourg, Andorra, San Marino, Liechtenstein, etc. If Northern Ireland became independent, it could just join the EU (regular Ireland is also an EU member), so they wouldn't have to maintain their own currency at least, and would benefit from the free trade. If Luxembourg can function as it is, I don't see why Northern Ireland can't do the same.

[lostlogin]

Which is ironic given how long foreign rule has had to sort the place out.

[hardlianotion]

Not really. Northern Ireland is quite small.

[de_Selby]

It would also represent an economic hit for the Republic of Ireland.

[fnord123]

This may be offset by the fact that Ireland will be the English speaking country in the EU in which multinational corporations can maintain a base of operations.

[reitoei]

A lot of people from both sides of the border don't want unification.

[dragonwriter]

> With emerging talk of Irish unification and Scottish independence after the referendum, some legacy he is going to leave behind.

As much as Sinn Fein might like to think they could exploit the pro-EU majority to push Irish unification, it seems to me that NI still has a unionist majority, and that those who are in the pro-EU/unionist overlap are predominantly going to favor staying with the UK instead of Ireland at the cost of the EU over joining the EU at the cost of unification with Ireland.

[secfirstmd]

Never going to happen. The Britain transfers about GBP £11 Billion a year into Northern Ireland, to keep it afloat. The Republic could never afford that and the people in the Republic would never vote for it. Never mind the Unionist community up North.

[berkut]

And he agreed to this to get UKIP votes in last year's election.

Admittedly the pressure was building from UKIP (and eurosceptic tories), but this is very unlikely to be in Britain's interests IMO.

[dogma1138]

Labour voters voted predominantly to to leave in this referendum more so than the conservatives.

[aidos]

What's the source for that? Not challenging you but I'd be interested to see a party breakdown.

[dogma1138]

The Labour party heartlands in England and Wales voted pretty much unanimously in favor to leave.

Jeremy Corbyn is already taking flak for this outcome: http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/24northnational/Labour-inq... https://next.ft.com/content/a035f3d2-39c4-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6... http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-blamed-f...

[newjersey]

This is ridiculous. London and Scotland overwhelmingly voted to stay. I have no love for labour after the alternate vote referendum but anyone who blames this on labour is clearly trying to rewrite history for scumbag David Cameron.

[mlnox]

I'm not sure you can characterise Scotland as Labour anymore. Largest party in the Scottish parliament are SNP, second largest Conservative, Labour are a measly third place.

As much as London is Labour supporting it's only a very small part of their supporter base, their traditional heartlands are Wales and the North of the UK, both of which overwhelmingly voted to leave.

[matthewmacleod]

I'm no defender of Cameron, but the Labour party in the UK have absolutely failed – both recently and during their last period in government – to engage with long-term problems of identity, especially in the north of England. A huge number of traditionally Labour-voting areas have opted to leave the EU, and the party have to bear some responsibility for that.

[xorcist]

That's true for the whole political spectrum, and not specifically labour voters.

It's a conflict that cuts through both parties and perhaps it is better described in terms of cities versus rural.

[berkut]

That explains the result of the referendum, not the agreeing to it in the first place.

[m_mueller]

As a Swiss this argument kind of baffles me. Governing according to the people's will should be the norm in a democracy, not some kind of strategic play.

[raverbashing]

Yes. Because you're thinking like a Swiss

Especially thinking that all decisions will be calm, collected and will result from evaluation of all sides

Most people will base a vote on false facts, spite and stuff like "following their heart"

[rjsw]

I suspect that a country has to have referendums fairly often for them to work as intended.

One problem in the UK was that people were answering different questions to the one asked.

[SmellyGeekBoy]

Exactly. If the majority want out then we should come out - and I say that as a Remain voter. Really interested to see what the future has in store. Thankfully us tech people should weather it better than most.

[creshal]

Gerrymandering and other shady crap are still commonplace.

[kimi]

And sometimes inconvenient, eg Feb 9th.