[j7f3]

Not in this particular case. Like others have pointed out, it is not in the best interest of EU to give UK a sweet deal and it is not that hard to understand why. UK has had a sweet deal with the EU full of exceptional treatments. It can veto anything it wants and frequently exercises its right to do so but does not contribute much to the common piggy bank. But now UK wants to leave altogether, will not contribute financially at all but will have an even better trade deal? What message does it send to those who are loyal members of EU? That they will be financially penalized for their loyalty? There is no way Britain gets a decent deal at all.

I read that about 5% of EU's trade is with UK. It's not insignificant but it's not the end of the world if it goes down to 0.5%. We will fuck UK over, good riddance, we will be stronger without UK, now we will finally pursue tighter integration without fear UK will sabotage such attempts.

[marvin]

This is just a ridiculous brinkmanship issue all the way around the table. The current situation with the exit vote wouldn't have been necessary if the concerns of the Leave side had been taken seriously by EU leadership (more local governance, for instance).

Now we're in a sorry situation where each party's incentive is the opposite of what is required for a healthy economy, and the important decisions require referendums and take a very long time. The fact that the vote to leave was mostly supported by older voters is a tragedy for the future generation, who do not have a straightforward way of having their concerns heard in the coming decades.

[emptyfile]

By "the concerns of the Leave side" you must mean the main point of the Leave camping, abolishing freedom of movement in the EU?

Goodbye Britain, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[saiya-jin]

no, now incentives in EU are to have healthy EU economy, without caring about UK one. this means rest of states will stay together for example. which could mean punishing UK financially for this silliness. you express UK-centric view, this is EU-centric one that goes beyond individual state/industry. UK goods become more expensive? well then some intern EU ones might become more interesting.

[gonvaled]

We are tired of your exceptionalism. You had a great (unfair for the rest) deal, and you were still complaining. We do not care one bit about the “concerns of the leave side“. Just go.

[marvin]

I'm not even a British citizen, I've been to Briain once. I am a European though, and worried about the economic situation in Europe.

[mcv]

This is the reason why I think losing the UK may not be all that bad for the EU. The UK got a very sweet deal, and was very obstructionist in return. Leaving and getting a reasonable deal outside the EU may be better for the EU, and maybe the UK will be happier there.

I think vindictive sanctions or refusing new trade deals with the UK would be stupid, childish and harmful for the EU. I hope they work together on a reasonable and fair deal. And then maybe the EU can move forward towards a closer union, and maybe also address some of the problems with the EU, because it's hardly perfect.

[gonvaled]

No vindictive sanctions, just a deal on EU terms. The UK can take it or leave it.

[hayd]

That's not a "deal"... and not how things work in real life.

There'll be negotiation and both the EU and the UK will get less than they want. There'll be free trade for sure, ironically there'll most likely free movement too.

[mcv]

More importantly, the UK will get less than they currently have. There's no possible way a new deal is going to be better than the already very sweet deal they currently have. A fair and reasonable deal will probably be something like that Norway and Switzerland have, which is very similar to what the UK currently has, but loses them their vote in the EU, and doesn't give them most of the things the Leave camp promised. A deal that gets them everything the Leave camp promised is impossible.

It is possible that the UK gets a slightly better deal than what Switzerland and Norway have, because the UK is bigger, but it's still not going to be a lot better. Certainly not in the current climate.

[beninvalencia]

Purely out of curiosity - why do you clearly loathe the UK so much? Is it personal?

[gonvaled]

- they have taken everything from the EU, and given little in return.

- they have dragged their feet for 40 years, preventing EU progress

- they have forced on the EU expansion to the East (which I welcome), and then complained that too many poles are migrating to the UK

- they have prevented political integration and shoved down our throats a neo-liberal EU

- they have been treated excepcionally well by the rest of the EU, with excemptions and rebates. How have they thanked us? By continuing to blame all their problems on the EU.

And now they leave.

But I do not loathe them (my personal experience with british people is excellent). I think that you, as a country, have been extremely unfair with your EU partners, and basically betrayed the European project, and the trust that we have deposited in you.

So, the only thing left now is just to accept things as they are: you have chosen to leave, so please do it immediately. Do not burden us with your petty politics. We are not interested in knowing if the next prime minister is going to have the majority to invoke article 50 or not, or if you will have a new referendum, or if Scotland will split from the UK. We do not want to wait for 6 motnhs, or 2 years, or 10 years until you get your house in order. We do not want this uncertainty anymore. We have respectfully waited the last two years (?) for your referendum to be held, but now we have had enough. David Cameron has organized this mess, and he should bear responsibility for making it legally binding.

[beninvalencia]

The strange thing about this for me, is that you had an excellent experience with the British people but now you are effectively calling for them to be crushed by this, at least, the 48.1% who voted remain, plus all the young people who couldn't vote but would have voted for remain.

[gonvaled]

I do not want to crush anybody. I want to salvage what is left of the EU. We can not allow for uncertainty, since now we'll get 20 more referenda all around the EU.

YOU have decided, and must take responsibility. We can not wait for years while your jonsons, farages and whoever sort their internal politics.

Cameron called the referendum and assured in case of defeat he would activate article 50 immediately. He must deliver. You have two years time to negotiate anyway.

I am sorry for the UK, I really am. I think you were an important partner, even though a bit unfair. But we must respect your decission: we can not pretend this is business as usual. The british people have voted, and we must respect that.

Specially sorry for the remainers, but this is something you need to sort out internally.

You are a sovereign nation.

[GunboatDiplomat]

IIRC, they've paid more into the EU than they get paid back to them in various programs.

It's disingenuous to say they "took everything and gave nothing."

[gonvaled]

Thats because (overall)you are richer: the EU works at the region level. Besides, the EU is not only money, there are also intangibles.

Besides, you are counting only EU related expenditures. Are you counting indirect benefits? How much money makes london operating EUR finantial center? And lots of other indirect benefits.

[mercer]

> - they have forced on the EU expansion to the East (which I welcome), and then complained that too many poles are migrating to the UK

Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lScVfwe-Rp0

[UK-AL]

So Germany will risk 1\5 of German car workers because it wants to send a message?

[barrkel]

There are no circumstances whatsoever that the EU will give the UK a trade deal like Norway / Switzerland / Iceland / etc. without the UK paying for the EU budget and allowing free movement of people, for example. All the things that the UK population voted against are exactly what prevents them from getting a trade deal. Something will have to give.

If you want to go with the rationalist perspective you seem to be advocating, then the UK government will have to be anti-democratic and strike a deal explicitly against their citizen's declared interests.

(This vote is particularly vexing for me since I'm Irish (voted stay) and now will have to sell my house in order to leave. Quite upsetting, overall.)

[FreeFull]

Northern Ireland might decide to become part of Ireland though, which would keep you in the EU. I wouldn't sell your house yet.

[chillydawg]

Irish citizens living in the UK have a right to vote in all UK elections. I think the GP was one of those, rather than a NI resident.

[atmercy]

People in the North are UK citizens already (and free to also get Irish citizenship). I believe they mean they're an Irish citizen living in the UK (maybe England itself) and they're worried that they might not be able to stay living there.

[Tomte]

Why should 1/5 of car exports lead to exactly the same propostion of lost jobs? That argument even prima facie wrong.

And it's not about Germany. It's about 27 countries, some of which don't even like Germany too much right now.

[kodfodrasz]

Sanctions against Russia hurt the German economy, and the workers, just to send a message.

Accepting lots of troublesome unskilled illegal immigrants hurt the German economy, and the workers, but sent a message.

I think I can see a pattern here...

[majewsky]

> Accepting lots of troublesome unskilled illegal immigrants hurt the German economy

It's the other way around: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/09/germany-imf...

[kodfodrasz]

This is pure bullshit. Lot of the illegals cannot even read and write. They don't know the language. Most of them are also not refugees. They will be liabilities. The skilled labour from the Eastern-European countries is an asset on the other hand.

Actually robots will take away lots of jobs. Why do we need more unskilled people in our lands, when soon even the skilled labour will be automatized, and unemployment will grow further?

[majewsky]

> Lots of the illegals cannot even read and write.

Except they can. Many Syrian refugees are proficient in English, and many even speak German. There was strong collaboration between German and Syrian universities historically.

(I'm not saying that everyone can read and write, but then again, Western societies have a surprising number of total and functional analphabets.)

And re the automation argument: Automation only takes away medium-skilled jobs. Jobs are for unskilled people because they don't require training, and that's also why they are a poor fit for robots. (Robots don't like irregular situations and need programming for new tasks, whereas you can easily explain a new task to a human worker in a few sentences.)

I always laugh at how people equate more people in a country with growing unemployment rates. If this really worried you, you would move to outlaw procreation, since procreation produces new workers to compete with you about 18 years from now.

[aianus]

> If this really worried you, you would move to outlaw procreation, since procreation produces new workers to compete with you about 18 years from now.

Only if the birth rate is above replacement which it isn't in any developed western country.

[_pmf_]

> So Germany will risk 1\5 of German car workers because it wants to send a message?

Let's be clear: it's the UK that felt obliged to send a message.

The rest of Europe's countries does not have delusions of grandeur and feel disenfranchised by foreign workers making minimum wage.

[Chris2048]

> The rest of Europe's countries does not have delusions of grandeur and feel disenfranchised by foreign workers making minimum wage.

There are many reasons to leave the EU, other than "delusions of grandeur" (the US seems to do pretty well..) and xenophoia. Perhaps the UK wanted to make choices without being slandered like this.

[_pmf_]

> Perhaps the UK wanted to make choices

What choice? You can wish that the refugee crisis would not exist, but the choice has been made when deciding whether or not to be the 6th largest weapon exporter.

Acting like an overrun victim now is a bit schizophrenic and it's sad to see 52 percent small minded bigots pulling down a country in this way.

[Chris2048]

52% bigots?

What an astute grasp of politics..

[eva1984]

They can sell cars to other countries. And UK will still buy them, just fewer.

[tonyedgecombe]

Germany is only one of 27 countries making this decison.

[PopsiclePete]

Riiiiiight. And in NATO, all NATO members are "equal" too, right? The US is just as important as Bulgaria, they're just "members"? Germany, where the ECB is, which is the most powerful economy in Europe, which basically controls the single European currency, is "just another country" in the EU, with an opinion that matters just as much as that of Portugal?

You honestly believe that?

[tonyedgecombe]

I believe they will act in their own interest.

[tehbeard]

Making the assumption that all 27 are equal and cannot possibly lean on others.

[tonyedgecombe]

Germany has a lot of might and will lean on the others but it remains to be seen how much effect that has, I have my doubts.

[anacleto]

Definitely not the case.

[Atropos]

Yes. I am German and pro-European and I would happily take a deal that our GDP will be cut 20% if UK's GP is cut even 10% in return. Not to punish the UK, but to firmly establish the principle that leaving the EU is painful. While this might not be the optimum from an economics point of view, it serves to keep the European Union alive - which is much more important in the long run (no more war etc...).

[sievebrain]

I suspect you will find that your enjoyment of self harm is not shared by most Germans.

Not to punish the UK, but to firmly establish the principle that leaving the EU is painful

Do you realise how crazy you people sound? "There's no punishment for leaving the Mafia, you just have to understand the principle that it will be as painful as possible".

The EU has warped into an ideological disease that sees European people's turned against one another by an absolutist religion that sees diversity as a flaw to be fixed and believes its own hype about stopping wars.

The EU does nothing to stop war. If turning Europe into a single country could stop war, there'd be no civil wars, but today the only wars are civil wars.

[Atropos]

It does not matter much if it is shared by most Germans - what matters is if it is shared by a small elite of German, French, and EU Commission/Parliament leaders. Do you really think the German population will rise up if you tell them "Hold up, discriminating against the UK in derivatives clearing rules will cost you 0.0x% of your GDP!" And to most people (outside of the UK), it is quite obvious anyway that contracts negotiated between friends cannot be transposed 1:1 into a relationship between entities who are not friends.

[GunboatDiplomat]

You realize that that is Great Depression level shit... last time that happened, you guys went a little nuts.

[beninvalencia]

"We will fuck UK over" "Now we will finally pursue tighter integration"

I have to say, with this kind of attitude, I am even more glad that the UK has left the EU. Who would want to be partners with this kind of spite and hatred?

[Sean1708]

> "We will fuck UK over"

Has the EU actually said this or is this just what people on the internet are assuming?

[tremon]

"the EU" can speak only in treaties, and so has not spoken yet.

But yes, multiple people connected with the EU government have been making statements to this effect: out means out. It is not in the EU's interest to give the UK a more favourable deal than it had before, because that signals to other member countries that leaving has financial benefits.

[mcv]

A more favourable deal than the UK already had is indeed unlikely, because the UK already had an unreasonably sweet deal. But I really do hope the EU will give the UK a fair deal in the coming negotiations. There's no point in needless hostility. Unless they want to make good on that World War 3 scare.

[lostlogin]

Why did you want to leave?

[beninvalencia]

Regain sovereignty.

Be able to set immigration to points based - like the US, Canada, Australia. Why should we discriminate against Indians, Chinese, Bangladeshis, Africans for the EU? I like immigrants and I think they help our economy, but I want this to be run better.

I don't agree with how the EU subsidizes e.g. French farmers at the expense of e.g. African farmers.

To not be a part of what seems to be a failing system and having to answer to the un-elected European Commission, and to therefore avoid being swept along in integration which isn't so good.

It might sound odd, but I didn't vote for leave. But I can see that now that this is what we have, maybe there are some reasons to be positive.

[radu_floricica]

> Be able to set immigration to points based - like the US, Canada, Australia. Why should we discriminate against Indians,

Because EU people are not immigrants. That's the whole point. They are citizens, which happen to be born 1000 km to the east and in a different historic region - but they are citizens. There is no discrimination here because you're comparing apples and oranges.

One day, if globalization advances far enough, we will have the exact same conditions for all (or most) of the world, in some form or another. But brexit is a step back from this, not forward.

[tomp]

> I don't agree with how the EU subsidizes e.g. French farmers at the expense of e.g. African farmers.

Don't you think not having enough local food production to feed the population is a liability of any sovereign nation? Personally, I think there are "strategically important" industries (like food, steel, weapons) that countries need to protect to remain sovereign, by subsidies or other means.

[chillydawg]

EU state aid laws make it illegal to prop up industries, though. The only reason it works for farmers is because..well...who knows? The UK would really, really like to give some state aid to a few steel companies right now but it blocked from doing so by the EU.

[lostlogin]

The protection of badly run farms is a shocker. They are hopelessly ineffective. New Zealander here - NZ dairy facing tariffs because of European inefficiencies annoys me.

[GunboatDiplomat]

Fewer subsidies will force increased efficiencies in the agricultural sector. More productivity for less inputs.

[PopsiclePete]

I can actually understand, to some degree, the fear of refugees, of Muslims, etc. But your fear of other European citizens boggles my effing mind, it really does. You're so worried about Polish people somehow destroying your "Britishness", but Bangladeshis and Africans - totes ok? No problem there for you?

[lostlogin]

Why are you scared of refugees and Muslims? Doesn't writing it down show you the insanity of that statement? They are fleeing horror and have a different narrow minded book to that which the locals subscribe. It seems to me that looking different is the key problem.

[PopsiclePete]

I'm not scared of refugees and Muslims. The people that vote UKIP are. But they're scared of Europeans it seems. Sorry, I'm liberal and all that as well, but in all honesty, somebody from Poland is less likely to be a strain on your social safety net, is more likely to be educated and be able to hold a job than an illiterate goat-farmer from Timbuktu. Just thinking about it logically, right?

So why are UK's xenophobes more afraid of the Polish Plumber than the Bangladeshi Goat Farmer??? That's what makes no sense to me. If you're going to be scared that your "Britishness" is disappearing, fine - but at least be logical about it. Who's more a danger to your way of life? Someone from 400 kilometers away or someone from 10,000?

[speleding]

It's 5% for Europe on average, but for Germany and the Netherlands it's much higher (15% for the Netherlands). No politician in his right mind is going to risk that to spite the British.

[sievebrain]

Leaders of EU countries are generally not in their right mind though. Merkel has flat out said that the EU for them is an emotional issue not a logical one.

This vote will set in motion a chain of events that can reshape politics across the continent. The EU leaders who have little to lose will use their votes to force the UK's main trading partners (Germany, Netherlands, Sweden etc) to start a trade war with the UK, at the same time as the UK is wanting to sign trade deals. This will piss off the populations in those countries. Referendums may well follow there too.

[roymurdock]

> now we will finally pursue tighter integration without fear UK will sabotage such attempts

Or other debtor countries in the EU will see this as a chance to possibly get out of the union and "start over" as it were.

[kodfodrasz]

> now we will finally pursue tighter integration without fear UK will sabotage such attempts.

Hitler and Stalin will be proud of their heritage.