[jzymbaluk]

This is a very fascinating story for me. I remember as a child my ( conservative, christian ) parents having long, serious discussions about credit cards and banking. They were wrestling with the same section of scripture that the writer quoted, Revelations 13:16-17:

"It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name."

They ended up concluding that there was no way to avoid plastic credit cards, but if technology ever advanced to the point where payments via subcutaneous microchip that they would reject it. I remember thinking how futuristic and far-off that sounded, but now this is a procedure that can be done today. I personally have left a lot of those beliefs behind, but I don't know if I could ever feel comfortable getting a chip implanted in my hand like the writer did.

[intopieces]

Serious question: What is the difference between having a card and having a chip? I mean, theologically, and what is your particular hesitation? Growing up in a conservative, christian household myself, there were rumblings that the Mark of the Beast had already arrived in the form of a Social Security Number.

[protomyth]

Some groups teach "the mark of the beast" fairly literally (e.g. SSN, credit cards, etc.), but I was taught it is not literal but symbolic of having to profess a heretical belief to participate in commerce with the hand / head position relating to the way you professed the belief. It goes along with the rest of the symbolism in Revelations. Literal vs Symbolic is a long running topic in most Christian churches.

[filoeleven]

> I was taught it is not literal but symbolic of having to profess a heretical belief to participate in commerce with the hand / head position relating to the way you professed the belief.

I remember something similar from a course I took in college, perhaps, or something I read later. Whatever it was it went even further with the symbolism: the idea was that the mark on the forehead represents the way in which one thinks, and the mark on the hand represents the way in which one acts. The takeaway was that it wasn't so much that one would be forced to make a claim of some sort in order to participate in the system of commerce, but rather that by participating in the system one is already marked by it.

I liked this interpretation because it changed the emphasis from one of watching out for some piece of technology or some bitter-tasting oath that you'd have to profess--both of which seem like they'd raise red flags to even the most casual Christian and are therefore unlikely to be much of a real threat--to one of looking inward and evaluating how your own participation in any system of exchange is subtly affecting the way you look at the world and at other people. (You can also see how this isn't terribly compatible with the brand of prosperity theology that has infected some branches of American Protestantism.)

[andrei_says_]

For me: what's involved in getting rid of/cutting the card vs. the implanted chip.

Knowing that rfid chips may be and are used not only for advertised transactions but also for tracking (Google around for unauthorized fasttrack readers), I'd like to be able to leave the chip at home.

[madelinecameron]

Not really a whole lot.

When I told my family about how much I wanted to get an RFID chip implanted in my hand my grandma flipped. She called me Satan, totally unjokingly.

I learned quickly to just not speak about technology. The top comment on the article proves why (People don't understand it)

[theandrewbailey]

I don't understand why Christians get anxious about applying events in Revelations to the current day. Do they not believe that they aren't going to be here for it?

[intopieces]

>Do they not believe that they aren't going to be here for it?

There are three main beliefs within Christianity:

Some believe that the rapture will occur before the rise of the Antichrist and the events described in Revelation (note the singular).

Some believe that Christ will call home the faithful midway through the strife.

Some believe that only those who are faithful for the complete event will be called up.

I haven't read the book myself in a while, but I do remember being told about these three schools of thought, as it were.

[Spellman]

Yup, there are three schools of thought.

Premillenialism, Amillennialism, and Postmillenialism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism

Most Evangelicals believe in Premillenialism (thank you Left Behind Series) so the grandparent is correct they believe they won't be around for the acts of Revelation. But they are also super paranoid about this stuff and see things like this (and the adoption of stuff like this) as signs that the End Times are coming.

Plus, no one really know which will occur, and there's a field of thought that believe by taking the Mark of the Beast you won't be saved anymore (again, thank you Left Behind series) so they are SUPER paranoid.

[fu9ar]

There are also Christians who believe it was an allegorical story based on events that were happening when it was written.

[throwanem]

Yes, and we call these "most Christians". Dispensationalism of whatever stripe is pretty unusual, for all that it was heavily discussed last decade.

[bobwaycott]

I don't know about this being most Christians. From my hyper-conservative, Christian upbringing to the present day, meeting any who think of Revelation as allegory of events long past has been exceedingly rare. Perhaps especially here in the southeastern US.

[ArkyBeagle]

The brand of Christianity in which I was trained does not take any of Revelation as a prophecy but rather analogous to what Mark Twain did in "Letters from Earth." Considering John of Patmos' circumstances at the time ( he was living in exile ) and the subsequent scholarship, this is largely the most reasonable interpretation.

The Fundamentalists evolved differently from the main European Christianities - think of a small village of practitioners separated from any strong institutional backing. You'll get "telephone game" distortions.

[protomyth]

> Do they not believe that they aren't going to be here for it?

Well, it doesn't really say all Christians get called up before it all goes to heck. Revelations has quite a few stages.

[EdSharkey]

If you accept the way Revelation (and the rest of the entire Bible) was presented, Christians are encouraged to pray for Jesus' return. This means a Christian is supposed to yearn for all these tribulations to happen and reject the evils of the world system even if that means dying for your beliefs in the process. When the corrupt world system (Babylon) is in its death throes, Christians will actively oppose and help speed its destruction.

So, any Christians' anxiety about being alive when the end times occur likely comes from crises of faith or ignorance (which I admit to having more than a bit of each myself.) The odds of being alive in human history at the times of the tribulations are slim, but you are told to make yourself ready spiritually for anything to happen at any time. Different Christian sects have sticking points on the order of when prophesy in the bible have already happened/will happen, and that can cause some spirited disagreements. I suppose those varied viewpoints on timelines may affect peoples' anxiety on these subjects as well.

What I find fascinating about the Revelation story is that the spiritual and physical worlds merge at the end of time. All people who ever lived are brought back to life physically on earth only to be immediately judged by God. People who accept Jesus are saved forever, people who reject Him are punished forever.

So it's not like you "go to heaven" in the end, but rather more like "earth is remade/perfected" and God comes to live there physically with his people. Any "heaven" that exists in the meantime is like a paradisaical holding tank where you wait until the end of days. I suppose that this all reflects a more Jewish mystical view than a Greek or European one, and this view seems more grounded/attainable to me than some nebulous cherubs with harps on clouds in heaven or Valhalla of the gods.

I like the Revelation story because it completes the bible in a very mystical and also very human way. It gives answers to a lot of life's questions and questions about God (like why God lets sin and sinners run amok.)

The message I take from Revelation is that no person is really worthy and technically everyone should be judged guilty because we're all sinners, making us incompatible with God. Only out of one's faith in Jesus who is the savior/perfect sin offering, and by God's grace, can you live as a perfected being with God in His holy city forever.

[dragonwriter]

Well, because there is a decent case to be made, one that is favored by a number of Christian scholars, that at least some of the events the book is referring to occur in the past, not the present or future.