[misja111]

I don't think it's because of some conspiracy that EU leaders like Merkel favor TTIP. They probably think it's the right way to go, because TTIP will make EU's economy grow. (See for example http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/html/151787.htm)

And it is obvious that major internationals on both sides will be the ones that benefit most from the cuts in government regulations proposed by TTIP. So a substantial portion of the economic growth will go to them. Therefore I don't think you need to be in the tinfoil hat camp to support the believe that they are lobbying for TTIP.

The mistake that our EU leaders make, IMO, is that what's good for the EU's economy, is not necessarily always good for the majority of its citizens. Those government regulations were there for a reason, for instance to protect the environment, support area's who are economically behind etc.

[maxxxxx]

That's the real problem. The term "economy" has been captured by big corporations. When I grew up in Germany the economy was supposed to be a benefit to all participants and a balance had to be achieved. Now the economy is supposed to be fine as long as big business is happy. The regular citizen doesn't count anymore.

TTIP is just the final expression of this. Whatever I hear only lobbyists have been involved. No other citizen organizations like unions, environmental organizations, politicians or wherever. Only big business.

[vasilipupkin]

I'd like to point out that German economy and by extension, regular Germans, heavily depend on exports to the US. So, reducing frictions in trade between US and Europe should make regular Germans better off not worse off. How do you suppose German economy works ?

[jethro_tell]

The most likely outcome of this is that exports are sold at the price they are at now, not cheaper. The workers are paid the same as they are now, (which is the market rate). And the difference in what's normal and cost savings from TTIP will go to company bottom line. And the top officers at the company will collect a performance bonus.

The unlikely scenario is that the price comes down and more units are sold and/or the difference in export costs is divided between the workers to pay them above market rate.

[vasilipupkin]

And the company and the executives pay taxes from the bottom line Thus, according to your own logic, the state, which pays social security and benefits is better off and is more fiscally sound

[raftaa]

"And the company and the executives pay taxes from the bottom line" ... this is sarcastic isn't it?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg_Leaks] [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-05-22/google-joi...]

[vasilipupkin]

So by your logic, since some companies and individuals evade some taxes, it follows that no companies and no individuals pay taxes?

[maxxxxx]

How about paying better salaries so the state doesn't have to do that much?

Seems the companies want to have it both ways. Not pay much and have the state provide assistance for underpaid workers (see Walmart) and then complain about taxes too high.

[jethro_tell]

>taxes too high.

At 3%, while the majority of earnings goes to the company, the workers carry the tax bill @18%

[jethro_tell]

I don't think the goal is getting more money into the coffers of the state. But, if that's a big win for you I guess it makes sense.

[vasilipupkin]

Well, in Germany people get pensions and benefits from the state. So, if your goal is to not have to reduce those, then yes, getting money into the coffers of the state is partially the goal

[maxxxxx]

I know Germany benefits big time from exports. But the benefits have stopped going to the workers. Like in the US wages are stagnating while the "economy" supposedly is doing well.

[vasilipupkin]

Really? How do you think Germany gets resources to pay for all the social benefits, pensions etc. if you think growth has stopped, then measures to raise it are a good thing

[morsch]

Growth has continued, net real wages haven't[0]. Although this seems to be changing[1].

[0] http://www.diw.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=diw_01.c.342374.de

[1] http://www.dw.com/en/germans-enjoy-highest-real-wage-rise-in...

[maxxxxx]

There would be much less need for social benefits if the pay had kept up with growth. There is a whole generation of perpetual interns (Praktikant) because companies don't hire full-timers.

[gech]

" should make regular Germans better off "

Please define a metric that we can use to establish this.

[vasilipupkin]

gdp per capita growth as well as sustainable financial situation so that German state can meet its social obligations without a fiscal crisis like in Greece

[mSparks]

I live (now) in a country with a GDP per capita an order of magnitude less than the US.

Having just come come back from the US. I can say without doubt.

There is much less poverty here. The average citizens quality of life here is an order of magnitude better than the us.

Funnily enough. Money isn't everything. Stuff like personal freedoms. Social interaction. Inequity are much more important IMHO.

[vasilipupkin]

Which country ? If GDP per capita in your country is an order of magnitude less, I question your assertion

[brandmeyer]

I don't think GDP/capita is enough, since it is taking an average of a highly skewed distribution. We really need something closer to a median: How about inflation-adjusted median income? Or perhaps inflation-adjusted median income after housing.

[jcfrei]

Thanks, just to be clear: I'm not an advocate for TTIP.

[richmarr]

Not sure where you're from, but it's hard to imagine a rational basis for the European public to be an advocate of it.

My understanding of TTIP and TPP are that they're the US's last ditch attempt to standardise international trade along US lines before China overtakes and starts to set the tone.

On that basis they kinda make sense from a US perspective. From an EU perspective not so much.

(edit: not saying the US has a chance of staying ahead of China if TTIP/TPP are successful, just that standardised trade rules may soften China's negotiation position)

[Grishnakh]

And in theory, this is actually a really good idea, and something the Western nations should be doing. China's human rights and environment records are abysmal. It would be to the advantage of western nations to be more unified for their common benefit, and force China to catch up. However the TTIP/TPP are going the wrong way: they're trying to water down or eliminate environmental and consumer protections in favor of large corporations' profits. In other words, they're trying to lower the bar rather than to raise it as they should be.

We really could use a standardized international trade treaty, but it has to be done in the open, and with input from more parties than just big corporations interested only in their profits, it needs input from environmental groups, workers' groups/unions, consumer rights advocates, food-safety organizations, etc.

[richmarr]

Agreed, and it's unnerving that lobby groups seem to have a degree of access that neither the public nor many of our elected representitives seem to have.

My knowledge of history in this area clearly isn't strong enough; I have no idea how we got here.

[riffraff]

> Not sure where you're from, but it's hard to imagine a rational basis for the European public to be an advocate of it.

Confindustria (the italian confederation of industrial companies) is strongly in favour of TTIP. Spirits exported to the US for example are heavily taxed, if they were not, we'd likely export more.

Or, if we get geographic denominations protection, we can get walmart to stop producing 40 things called "asiago" or "parmesan" (as it happened for german produced parmesan, or in reverse for the italian Tocai wine which clashed with hungarian Tokaji) and than it's a win for the producers of the real stuff.

Moreover in some things the US has _better_ legislation than europe, for example "bio" regulation is more strict, as are car safety rules, AFAIK.

I am not saying this will work out for the best, I am saying there are supporters of TTIP on the european side too.