[maxxxxx]

That's the real problem. The term "economy" has been captured by big corporations. When I grew up in Germany the economy was supposed to be a benefit to all participants and a balance had to be achieved. Now the economy is supposed to be fine as long as big business is happy. The regular citizen doesn't count anymore.

TTIP is just the final expression of this. Whatever I hear only lobbyists have been involved. No other citizen organizations like unions, environmental organizations, politicians or wherever. Only big business.

[vasilipupkin]

I'd like to point out that German economy and by extension, regular Germans, heavily depend on exports to the US. So, reducing frictions in trade between US and Europe should make regular Germans better off not worse off. How do you suppose German economy works ?

[jethro_tell]

The most likely outcome of this is that exports are sold at the price they are at now, not cheaper. The workers are paid the same as they are now, (which is the market rate). And the difference in what's normal and cost savings from TTIP will go to company bottom line. And the top officers at the company will collect a performance bonus.

The unlikely scenario is that the price comes down and more units are sold and/or the difference in export costs is divided between the workers to pay them above market rate.

[vasilipupkin]

And the company and the executives pay taxes from the bottom line Thus, according to your own logic, the state, which pays social security and benefits is better off and is more fiscally sound

[raftaa]

"And the company and the executives pay taxes from the bottom line" ... this is sarcastic isn't it?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg_Leaks] [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-05-22/google-joi...]

[vasilipupkin]

So by your logic, since some companies and individuals evade some taxes, it follows that no companies and no individuals pay taxes?

[maxxxxx]

How about paying better salaries so the state doesn't have to do that much?

Seems the companies want to have it both ways. Not pay much and have the state provide assistance for underpaid workers (see Walmart) and then complain about taxes too high.

[jethro_tell]

>taxes too high.

At 3%, while the majority of earnings goes to the company, the workers carry the tax bill @18%

[maxxxxx]

Well that's the typical discussion at least in the US. "Look how much taxes the top 1% pay over those low income slackers."

[jethro_tell]

I don't think the goal is getting more money into the coffers of the state. But, if that's a big win for you I guess it makes sense.

[vasilipupkin]

Well, in Germany people get pensions and benefits from the state. So, if your goal is to not have to reduce those, then yes, getting money into the coffers of the state is partially the goal

[jethro_tell]

Sure, so the company can pay pennies on the dollar for pensions for employees after a life time of service. What a great deal?

What actually ends up happening is the people who carry the tax burden ( workers ) end up paying their own pensions. Which is fine, as long as we aren't pretending that the pensions is a benefit of working.

[maxxxxx]

I know Germany benefits big time from exports. But the benefits have stopped going to the workers. Like in the US wages are stagnating while the "economy" supposedly is doing well.

[vasilipupkin]

Really? How do you think Germany gets resources to pay for all the social benefits, pensions etc. if you think growth has stopped, then measures to raise it are a good thing

[morsch]

Growth has continued, net real wages haven't[0]. Although this seems to be changing[1].

[0] http://www.diw.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=diw_01.c.342374.de

[1] http://www.dw.com/en/germans-enjoy-highest-real-wage-rise-in...

[maxxxxx]

There would be much less need for social benefits if the pay had kept up with growth. There is a whole generation of perpetual interns (Praktikant) because companies don't hire full-timers.

[gech]

" should make regular Germans better off "

Please define a metric that we can use to establish this.

[vasilipupkin]

gdp per capita growth as well as sustainable financial situation so that German state can meet its social obligations without a fiscal crisis like in Greece

[mSparks]

I live (now) in a country with a GDP per capita an order of magnitude less than the US.

Having just come come back from the US. I can say without doubt.

There is much less poverty here. The average citizens quality of life here is an order of magnitude better than the us.

Funnily enough. Money isn't everything. Stuff like personal freedoms. Social interaction. Inequity are much more important IMHO.

[vasilipupkin]

Which country ? If GDP per capita in your country is an order of magnitude less, I question your assertion

[brandmeyer]

I don't think GDP/capita is enough, since it is taking an average of a highly skewed distribution. We really need something closer to a median: How about inflation-adjusted median income? Or perhaps inflation-adjusted median income after housing.