Ask HN: Canadian visa woes. Should I try Australia?

[visawoes]

I came to Canada a few months back, looking for a Front-End / Full-Stack Developer position. After months of search, I finally found a startup who was ready to sponsor me. After making me fly from Toronto to Vancouver, telling me they would like to "go ahead", and wasting 45 days of my time ("We're talking to the lawyers") they stopped answering my emails. I'm in a fix now. My visa here expires soon, and I don't think I can find a company here to sponsor me.

I am 23-year old, self-taught, with 4-years of experience and have an impressive portfolio. Most of my work has been around JavaScript - Angular, React, and Node. On the back-end, Laravel on PHP. I have been working on my own projects for the past few years, and make enough money to sustain. I am looking to work with an exciting startup, and settle down somewhere.

These are my options now:

1. Go to Sydney, Australia, and look for work sponsorship there

2. Get a 1-year diploma in Canada. It gives me a 1-year work visa. Then, find someone to sponsor me in those 2 years

I looked at UK, but getting a visa without a college degree seems quite hard. Also, I'd have to wait for 5+ years to get residency.

I don't qualify for Working Holiday Visa.

Any advice? Is getting sponsorship with an Australian company any easier than Canada?

[ausvisaissues]

I am also looking to go to Australia, and read up quite a bit about it. Below is a rough summary (by me). It may contain errors.

Part 1: There are two ways to go about it. One option is to first get a Skilled Immigrant Permanent Residence visa (189) and then apply for a job.

Another is to find an employer to sponsor a Skilled (Temporary) visa (457).

The advantages of permanent resident visa (Skilled Independent Visa, 189):

1. Visa is permanent: you can change jobs

2. You can enroll for public healthcare and get many public benefits (e.g. child care rebates)

3. You do not need to have a job offer to go to Australia

4. A company does not need to sponsor your visa. This means that smaller companies can employ you. For 99% of the jobs, you are equal to an Australian citizen (some jobs like government/security jobs, you need to be a citizen)

5. Children born during PR receives Aus citizenship.

6. After 4 years, you can apply for Australian citizenship.

The problem with the 189 visa is that it is based on a point system. This point system takes into account:

1. Degree (or equivalent work experience), 2. Age, 3. English language ability, 4.Work experience, 5. Field of employment (should be on the Skilled Occupations List). Software engineering is.

Another problem is that it can take quite a while to get it. The process is:

1. Do a skills assessment (Australian Computer Society)

2. Lodge expression of interest (now your watch begins ;) )

3. Get an invitation to apply

4. Apply (with police clearance, medical clearance, etc.…). Costs around AUD$3000

[ausvisaissues]

Part 2:

The advantages of the temporary work (skilled) visa (457) is:

(1) Easier to obtain than 189, (2) Cheap and quick (within 6-8 weeks), (3) No skills assessment, (4) lower English requirements, (5) you have 90 days to find a new employer if you lose your job, (6) employer may be able to sponsor you for a permanent visa after a while.

I think this visa is much better than equivalent visas in other countries.

The disadvantages of this visa is:

1. You have to get private medical care (can be expensive)

2. Private medical care has some waiting time (big problems if you get pregnant within 12 months of entering Australia)

3. Employers have to be recognized by DIBP (only larger well established companies)

4. Employers must do market testing and prove that they cannot fill the position with an Australian citizen (less jobs)

PS: There are other variations on these visa schemes. For instance, if you get state sponsorship, you can apply for a 190 visa (and receive more points). There are other visa classes for recent graduates (485). There is also working holiday visa (417). The impression that I get however is that 90% of people either start with a 457 or 189 visa.

PPS: I encourage you to do a skills assessment to check if you qualify for a 189 visa. Here is the test: http://www.harriswake.com/skillselectpointscalculator

For job search sites, use indeed.au and seek.au. Note that most jobs do not sponsor 457 visas.

Also, all jobs on http://www.austjobs.com/ sponsor visas.

PPPS: Forgot to add: Melbourne is (IMHO) much better to live in than in Sydney. Both are large cities (4 million+), but the cost of living in Melbourne (rent) is much lower. See here: http://goo.gl/pCwKNO

[tedmiston]

And here is some aggregated data from Nomad List that might help you compare short to medium-term living in Melbourne vs. Sydney.

                           | Melbourne | Sydney
    ---------------------- | --------- | ------
    Internet               | bad       | bad
    Fun                    | good      | great
    Nightlife              | good      | bad
    Free WiFi in city      | bad       | great
    Places to work from    | okay      | good
    A/C or heating         | great     | great
    Cost of living         | okay      | bad
    Quality of life        | good      | good
    Safety                 | good      | good
    Friendly to foreigners | good      | great
    English speaking       | great     | great
    Racial tolerance       | good      | good
    Female Friendly        | great     | good
    Gay Friendly           | good      | great

Admittedly the qualitative scale is subjective, but it is based on individual responses.

https://nomadlist.com/melbourne-australia/scores

https://nomadlist.com/sydney-australia/scores

[tedmiston]

I second Melbourne. (I've only traveled there, not lived there, but I'd like to.)

Have you looked into Australia's Working Holiday visa? I believe that allows you to enter and stay for 6 months without having an employer sponsor. So you could freelance or job search during that time without being stranded.

[I know you said you don't qualify for a Working Holiday visa, but I'm assuming that meant in Canada.]

[SyneRyder]

That PPPS is a good point. I'm an Aussie (living in Perth), and virtually every Australian I know has dreamed of living in Melbourne at some point. More cultural, cosmopolitan & friendlier than Sydney.

[I like Perth, but I wouldn't recommend it for jobs or nightlife. Weather sure is better here than Melbourne though.]

[stephenr]

Where are you from? Most visa laws are related to the applicant's country of citizenship.

A few points:

- Australia is a great place to live (I am Australian, lived there till my late 20s), but be aware that it's expensive compared to e.g. USA.

- While you can apply for a PR (permanent resident) visa from within Australia, it's much cheaper to do it from outside the country.

From a more general view I see two points here: You want to work as a developer on cool projects, and you want to live somewhere nice.

To me, those are not necessarily related to each other. Remote working is real, and often the nicest places to live (IMO) are the places where it isn't convenient to commute to a 'regular' office every day.

I first got into remote working through X-Team [1], and while I've moved on to my own company now, I would still recommend them to anyone who wants to work on amazing projects without being tied to an office in NYC, London or SV.

[1] http://x-team.com

[visawoes]

I am from India.

Sydney does seem quite expensive, but I'm okay with it.

You want to work as a developer on cool projects, and you want to live somewhere nice.

That sums it up. I have been traveling and working remotely for 2+ years now. It was fun a while, but I don't see myself doing it in the long run.

[stephenr]

I guess it depends what sort of lifestyle you want.

Remote working doesn't necessarily mean travelling. I've been "remote" working since 2009, and in that time I've lived in 4 houses in two cities (2 in Melbourne, and we've just moved into our second place since being in Thailand)

One thing to keep in mind is that the 'startup' industry is much less active in Australia, and in my experience salaried tech jobs (as opposed to contracts/b2b consultant type work) in Australia in general are quite low, unless you're doing doing "enterprise" stuff for government/banks/etc.

[sanswork]

I just got my AU PR(partner) and the people from India had multiyear waits for their applications to be processed. Are you eligible for a working holiday?

[viraptor]

> While you can apply for a PR (permanent resident) visa from within Australia, it's much cheaper to do it from outside the country.

This doesn't sound right. You apply for a PR visa. That's it. The visa application cost doesn't change depending on where you live.

Unless you meant the cost of living here without work?

[stephenr]

> This doesn't sound right. You apply for a PR visa. That's it. The visa application cost doesn't change depending on where you live.

I've done some more research. For the type of visa the OP wants (sponsored) it seems you're right, there is no difference. For partner visas there was absolutely a difference in price (because it's actually a different pair of visas depending on where you apply from) until recently, when all the prices increased to the same price.

http://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa/Fees/previous-versions-of...

[jklein11]

I'm wondering if the OP also factored in the increased cost of living?

[jjcm]

For what it's worth, at Atlassian we're hiring pretty heavily. I just started in Sydney with them and they offered me a 4 year work visa with the option to get permanent residency.

[guillegette]

My 2 cents.

Step 1: Apply for the work and holiday visa for Australia. Gives you 1 year of working rights.

Step 2: Arrive to Sydney and look for a job. There is a lot of demand out there so ONLY start working for a company that can sponsor your after 6 months. (457 visa)

Step 3: Work hard play hard and get sponsored (company pays for it, its super easy)

Step 4: Stay in Australia for as long as you want, save money and then travel the world.

Salaries? Check out seek.com.au

Source? myself I've done that.

[visawoes]

I don't qualify for Working Holiday Visa.

[akg_67]

Join any college program, convert to student visa in Canada. While on student visa, primarily focus on finding job (studies are secondary). Once you find job and get work authorization, drop out of college and start working. Go for your option 2.

Anyway, for the long term, try to get any 4-year degree in IT/CS while working (online, remote, part-time). The degree will help you in the future to overcome bureaucracy. You might benefit from being in Canada if you want to migrate to US.

[lenova]

Which Vancouver company left you hanging high and dry?

[guessmyname]

I find the background of this story ironic considering that every six months the Canadian government but mostly Quebec sends people around the world to motivate people with professional education and/or work experience to immigrate there. I have a similar profile as OP but after six years and four different attempts to immigrate to both Quebec (once) and Canada (three times) I have decided to give up; even my Canadian co-workers say that my profile is good. It doesn't makes sense why those two governments (apparently) don't follow the progress of an immigrant to avoid what OP is currently experiencing. An immigration process is so tedious that ending up wasting time, energy and money is not affordable.

OP I hope you can find a good company to sponsor you.

[tostitos1979]

The Canadian immigration system is kafkaesque for some unlucky souls. The rules change rapidly, the wait times reported online are not credible. All our recently interactions have been beyond terrible.

My suggestion to the OP is consider applying for a student visa in Canada and enroll in an undergrad program.

[marak830]

If you don't qualify for a work visa, I would advise to try and get an extension there before going to aus.

Side note, I'm Australian and my wife is Japanese, beware that she had a bit of a hard time there due to not being native(we left because of that about 4 years ago).

As for a visa while in aus, it was fairly expensive i remember thinking for her(on a spouse visa so your millage may vary).

I wish you the best of luck, and for the record we were in Melbourne, so the apparent dislike towards non Australians may be different in Sydney(the only city I haven't lived in, in aus).

I wish you the best of luck nk matter your choice.

[pesfandiar]

Most large software companies here will do LMIA for you. How long do you have left on your work permit? If you have at least 2-3 months and would like to work on a cloud-based analytics product, shoot me an email. If you get hired, and apply for a work permit, you can still be here on implied status until you get it (i.e. kosher to stay, cannot easily come back if you leave though).

[visawoes]

Thanks, but I'm not super keen on working with an enterprise company. SAP and Amazon are probably the two companies that don't see LMIA as an hindrance.

[theviajerock]

Hi, could you give me you email or some way to contact you? I am doing the same procedure and I would like to ask you a couple of things. I am deciding between Australia and Canada.

Thank you!

[hackerboos]

It's actually legal to work for foreign companies whilst in Canada on a tourist visa. If that helps your situation.

[viraptor]

Why not look for sponsorship before moving over? That way you can try multiple countries and move only if you do have something sorted out.

[mb_72]

2), inasmuch as I can't see how you can legally do 1).

[visawoes]

1. I can come to Australia for 6 months on a visitor visa

[mb_72]

... which doesn't allow you to work or to look for work.

[nish1500]

It says on border.gov.au:

The Business Visitor stream is for people travelling to Australia for a short business visit. This includes making a general business or employment enquiry, negotiations or participating in a conference.

[mb_72]

6 months is not 'short', and you have - while negging me I presume - overlooked the documentation requirements for such a visa: https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/600-/Visitor-visa-(sub...

(bottom of page)

[nish1500]

I went through the same process to get Visa for Canada and the USA, only with more documents.

[iheartmemcache]

Australia got really, really hard to emigrate into without a degree. Up until 3 or 4 years ago you could be a tattoo'd dude with a long list of minor convictions (misdemeanors) and as long as you could ground a Hilti properly, you'd basically be guaranteed a work visa. Most countries have a point system where ~40% of it is 'do you have a bachelors', another 30% will be a job offer in an industry that's understaffed (e.g. Australia's mining boom in the late 00s, early 10s, as a result of Chinese demand for iron ore (11% of it's domestic export, 2001, tied with wool; 2011: between 50-55% of domestic exports (wool had decreased to ~5%) needed a lot of blue-collar folk from the States to take foreman positions (i.e. those positions were in drastic demand, so, barring a felony, a high school drop-out with US domestic experience would command 6 figures). Sydney rules, Melbourne is fun too, but they're both expensive as hell and it's not without it's racism either. I haven't had the unfortunate experience of such events but I've been fairly lucky in that regard (even in rural Alabama I get along well, minus a few comments about a Somerville accent that comes out after a few drinks).

Up until ~2 years ago, New Zealand was both a) actively seeking skilled laborers with or without degrees and b) had a pretty healthy tech scene. I've heard recently things have become far more difficult. 5+ year for PR/green-card status is really about course for any nation where anyone would want to emigrate to. I'm sure you could expedite the process if you were looking for citizenship in Yemen, but enjoy your stay haha.

I'm fluent in Spanish and was considering buying a vacation home in Seville when their economy crashed. I didn't even want work visa status (I'd be a net benefit for their nation, just consuming their alcohol, culture and women), much less EU citizenship. Despite being well-educated, not seeking a work visa, liquid enough to prove I'm not going to be a burden on their healthcare or an economic migrant looking to take away their domestic jobs - still the path to permanent residency was enormous. Berlin is my favorite city of all. My German is conversational and don't get me started on the tedious process just to PR - since I don't have German blood, I don't think I can even naturalize. I know some unfortunate souls with PhD's in the hard sciences who have been in "waiting for US Green Card" limbo for > 12 years (and these guys aren't going to be picking fruit - their return-on-value would be enormous -- if there were a commodity of specific tranches of humans on which I could trade, I'd place a few hundred k USD on some bright men and women I know).

You're in a really good position - stay in India, establish corporate work in Lichtenstein or the Isle of Man or whatever, and shake enough hands to establish the contacts required find the demand-side of work. Then supply the labor for whatever is in demand at the time. If you can find reliable, skilled labor in India, arbitrage off the USD/INR gap and make a fortune. When my firms at capacity, we outsource to basically every nation[1]. Engineers from the former Soviet states are more or less 100% reliable and the quality of code is on par if not better than the average US citizen @ 40% the wage (plus I don't have to pay their 8% end of SS).

Certain nations offer (or previously did offer, I'm not sure if the policies remain) immediate citizenship if invest X amount of money in their domestic economy. You show Y amount of liqudity, Z amount of capital assets and reasonable proof that you'll hire $num of their nationals. Ireland had that policy during their economic crash (no idea if it's still there, but that's a powerful Schengen Area passport for something cheap like a million in capital assets, 25% of which should be fungible), and Latvia (?) I think was another one.

[1] GSA Alliant fed work notwithstanding. In that case we do what everyone else does and hire mediocre staff that'll pass SF-86 clearance, pay them a nominal salary, bill them out at triple to the DoD and let them sit around filling seats, playing with their phone until the duration of the contract is over, while one or two talented engineers do the bulk of the work and get a 150% performance bonus.