[llamataboot]

sure, but ascribing some sort of otherwordly virtue to people by virtue of their material success is. inverted Calvinism perhaps. Regardless, still taps into the weird part of the US psyche that has a Protestant work ethic that believes that everything is possible for everyone if they just work hard enough filtered through a sort of divine blessing (only this case it is dressed up in a New Age "tapping into the power of positive thinking schtick") -- in any case, it has the same outcome of blaming individuals for the structural circumstances they find themselves living in -- in one case, it is that you obviously weren't one of the chosen, in the mainstream meritocratic case, it's a more easy to digest "you just didn't work hard enough", in this case it is dressed back up with psuedo-religious trappingsabout how the universe wants you to succeed and you get back the energy you put out.

[chris_wot]

Inverted Calvinism isn't really Calvinism though, is it?

[llamataboot]

all goes back to the divine right of kings for me...

[chris_wot]

I guess you could call me a Calvinist, but I find Calvin's treatment of Severetus (burning him at the stake) appalling. I just think that he got a lot of what I believe about Scripture correct - the whole TULIP summarization of his theology I largely agree with.

I just don't think that properity was ever part of his beliefs - if anything Calvin has been accused of being a gruel eating killjoy...

[llamataboot]

so basically you believe God chose some people to go to hell, some people to go to heaven, there's nothing you can do to change that, and there's nothing you can do to lose that, without the part that the Elect are showered in riches here on earth.

[llamataboot]

chris_wot -- the HN algorithms keep from from responding to your post again, but I hope you don't think I was being sarcastic (I wasn't, I was just stating the bare minimum of how I understood your views). I don't believe in a Christian god (though I did for a long while) nor do I believe in heaven or hell (though I'm still probably less rational and more mystical than 95% of HN - but thanks for the nuanced response. I do admit that it is completely logical to take the view that we all have free will yet God exists outside time and space so knows everything that will happen so therefore of course predestination and free will are not at odds with each other. I'd urge you to reflect on how an all-loving being could condemn anyone to torture for all eternity based on the decisions they made in one tiny lifetime, but that's neither here nor there. We're getting far afield of the main topic here, but I hope you would admit that prosperity HAS been a tenant of mainstream Calvinism in so far as god showering his elect on earth with blessings, etc.

[chris_wot]

Not at all - I knew exactly what you were saying and I didn't think it was sarcastic. I also wasn't offended, you basically summed up a lot of Calvanism (and rather starkly but accurately summed up my view on it!), and there was no real sugar coating of it. I respect that.

To be honest, when I read about the Prosperity Gospel, it's so far away from the New Testament gospels I have read a few times now that I just frankly don't understand it at all. I mean, in the gospel of Matthew, Jesus is reported to have said "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

I've definitely grappled with the concept of hell and damnation. It's not the appropriate forum to really discuss this in too much detail, suffice it to say that I think a perfect, loving God who is rejected and wronged by a creation made in His own image (with all that entails) because that creation needed to be given the freedom to accept or reject it's creator must give that creation a response.

[chris_wot]

I'm sad you have been voted down, because although it's more nuanced than that, election and free will is indeed a big part of Calvinism.

(You'll have to pardon my style, as I try to use He and Him when I speak of God, instead of he and him)

My own take on is that the things you raise are indeed a big part of Calvinism, and really wrapped up in the notion of predestination. A lot of people have problems with it, I understand why. They object to the fact that the elect are known by God before hand and He writes the names of those who will be with Him through Eternity into the Book Of Life and the rest He casts into eternal damnation.

But I've also been considering that God exists outside of space and time. In Psalm 90 it reads that "For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night." And in 2 Peter 3:8 he says "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

So I've been wondering: if God sees the future perfectly, then He knows who loves him and who rejects Him. He knows who will ask for forgiveness for the terrible way we have lived, which He cannot stand.

I believe that God loves us, and gives us free will. He gave Adam and Eve the freedom to disobey and eat from the tree of good and evil, and they chose to commit evil. He wanted them to love Him as their creator, but they didn't. That love couldn't be given to an automaton, it could only be given to those who chose to give it freely.

So what I wonder is if in fact God doesn't intervene directly but looks at the free choices given in someone's life. I wonder if He chooses to offer his love and gives opportunities for all men and women to accept Him. But He knows who will accept His offer as He does exist out of linear space and time!

This wouldn't preclude God from carrying out His plan. He can still work though events, in fact He puts people into places and situations that satisfy His plans. Perhaps that plan is so perfect that He takes the rejection of mankind, the evil that we do and uses it for His good purposes. And that also means that He also stops evil acts, and takes down dictators like Sadaam Hussein, Adolf Hitler and others.

So then it makes logical sense that there is no conflict between predestination and free will! In other words, free will is still given, and offered, and humans gain agency, dignity and freedom - in other words, we are truly made in His image! But as God knows all our days, and all our actions because of His immense and powerful ability to manipulate time to His own ends, then that is how we are predestined to accept or reject Jesus, and through this action, God.

Of course, if you don't believe in the Christian God, then this is all nonsense, but I thought that as you treated my comment with honesty and at least respected my replies enough to respond I'd give a fuller response and try to explain my own perspective on the matter.