[theboywho]

GNU is like Leonardo DiCaprio few years ago; never getting the Oscar. Microsoft did not bring Linux to Windows, it brought GNU. Linux is a kernel and there is not even a single bit of it in what microsoft brought to windows. It's technically GNU/Windows.

[stormbrew]

No. Just no. GNU on Windows has existed for a long time in several forms, for one thing. For another, by bringing a compatibility layer for the Linux kernel they have opened the door to much more than just GNU, and it remains incredibly reductivist to claim that that's all the Linux kernel does. You can use the Linux kernel (or this linux-compatible layer) to use a GNU system or a completely non-GNU system if you so choose.

What they bring by default as a user-land is Ubuntu, which is actually a complete OS that happens to include both GNU and Linux and many many other things, including essential components that are not part of either project. I say actually a complete OS because, in spite of RMS' protestations to the contrary in the famous "It's GNU/Linux, stupid!" editorial, the GNU system was not "almost finished" when the Linux kernel came along and is still not "almost finished" even today.

And the reason it's not almost finished is because the GNU project considers the kernel unimportant, which they prove wrong every year HURD remains a mess that moves forward with the pace of a snail.

[theboywho]

You are wrong in so many ways. First of all, you are confusing "Microsoft bringing GNU to Windows" with "this is the first time GNU is brought to Windows." Then you go on to make it seem like if the GNU/Linux debate is just the craziness of some guy called RMS: wrong, many people support this distinction. Then you go off-topic talking about why GNU hurd is a mess. None of this contributes to the key topic here: Microsoft only brought GNU, not Linux and not Ubuntu. A topic where you were wrong again. Please read https://mikegerwitz.com/2016/04/GNU-kWindows

[Delmania]

> many people support this distinction

Really? Maybe I travel in the wrong circles, but most of the time this comes up most people just roll their eyes.

Also, that blog post is terrible, and highlights why the FSF fails so miserably at it's mission. Referring to Windows as "freedom-denying, user-controlling, surveillance system" ignores the fact that most people don't care because it works.

[mikegerwitz]

> Also, that blog post is terrible, and highlights why the FSF fails so miserably at it's mission. Referring to Windows as "freedom-denying, user-controlling, surveillance system" ignores the fact that most people don't care because it works.

These users do not value freedom. And that's their right, however much we disagree with it.

It doesn't make those statements false, and doesn't change the situation. I wrote that article to focus on software freedom, its purpose, and GNU.

We don't ignore the fact that "most people don't care because it works"; that doesn't make sense, because that works against our ideals.

[Delmania]

I suspect those users do care about freedom. The issue is that most people view a computer as just a tool to do work, not a political statement. The concept of software freedom make little sense to most people, and for good reason. The FSF would do well to focus less on the ideology, and more on providing a better user experience for non technical people.

The other issue is the concept of "free software". No matter the claims, when the term free is applied to a product (or product class) like software, the immediate implication that the price is free. The "free as in free speech" doesn't work too well because speech is not a product. Also, Windows doesn't exactly stop me from doing questionable activities, like authoring documents that would be considered subversive.

Telling people that Windows takes away their right to view and modify the source code will at best give lukewarm response, because most people have other concerns.

[mikegerwitz]

> I suspect those users do care about freedom.

I meant software freedom in this context; I should have been more clear.

> The FSF would do well to focus less on the ideology, and more on providing a better user experience for non technical people.

There are plenty of organizations that do that. The FSF exists for very specific reasons---ideology is essential.

> The "free as in free speech" doesn't work too well because speech is not a product

I don't follow.

By "free as in free speech" we mean the same thing as when we say "free as in freedom".

> Also, Windows doesn't exactly stop me from doing questionable activities, like authoring documents that would be considered subversive.

You're not setting a very high bar there ;)

[theboywho]

again, you only seem to want to discuss the off-topic subject related to GNU and the FSF positions in general. the thing is, no matter what your position on the GNU/Linux debate is, it doesnt change the fact microsoft brought GNU to windows and not Linux, nor ubuntu. It's just a fact, not an opinion.

[JdeBP]

... as discussed extensively on Hacker News on its own page, including threads such as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11459025 .

[mikegerwitz]

> GNU on Windows has existed for a long time in several forms, for one thing

This is a legitimate question, since I am not a Windows user: has it really? Or are you referring to GNU software[0], which is not what we are referring to when we say GNU is a fully free Unix replacement; GNU software is only a part of that.[1]

[0]: https://gnu.org/software/

[1]: https://gnu.org/gnu/gnu.html

> For another, by bringing a compatibility layer for the Linux kernel they have opened the door to much more than just GNU, and it remains incredibly reductivist to claim that that's all the Linux kernel does. You can use the Linux kernel (or this linux-compatible layer) to use a GNU system or a completely non-GNU system if you so choose.

Sure they have. But that's not what the conversation is focused on: it's focused on being able to use GNU Bash and all the other Unix (mostly GNU) utilities that hackers are used to using.

> And the reason it's not almost finished is because the GNU project considers the kernel unimportant

Linux completed a major missing piece of GNU, which we refer to as GNU/Linux.[2]

[2]: https://gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html

Specifically:

"Once Torvalds freed Linux in 1992, it fit into the last major gap in the GNU system. People could then combine Linux with the GNU system to make a complete free system — a version of the GNU system which also contained Linux. The GNU/Linux system, in other words."[2]

[stormbrew]

> This is a legitimate question, since I am not a Windows user: has it really? Or are you referring to GNU software[0], which is not what we are referring to when we say GNU is a fully free Unix replacement; GNU software is only a part of that.[1]

As far as I can tell this subsystem does nothing that cygwin hasn't done in terms of 'bringing gnu to windows' since 1995, except that it does it technically better and allows for you to use software that does not depend on already ported components without recompilation. This means, for example, that you can use a libc other than glibc without porting that libc to windows first (ie. you could use musl, which is absolutely not part of the gnu system and even implements its own dynamic linker). You couldn't do that with cygwin. At least not trivially.

> Sure they have. But that's not what the conversation is focused on: it's focused on being able to use GNU Bash and all the other Unix (mostly GNU) utilities that hackers are used to using.

Even if I concede that GNU constitutes a 'system' in the way that RMS insists (which I don't, at all. His claims are political, not technical, imo), I would not agree that using this layer constitutes using that system for precisely this reason. Using bash or even gcc is not sufficient to consider a system 'gnu', even by RMS' own statements, else OSX and the other BSD systems would be gnu systems as well. For the most part, use of "bash on windows" is literally just that. You run bash and it exists in a space that is like but not exactly the same as linux, but that part is largely artifice. You don't even get a complete /proc filesystem.

[Note: Considering I am literally referring to those RMS screeds in my posts, I'd appreciate it if you at least pretended to believe I've read them.]

[mikegerwitz]

> Even if I concede that GNU constitutes a 'system' in the way that RMS insists

Remember: back in the day, there was no way to run a free Unix-like operating system. GNU provided a way, and nothing else existed at the time, though BSD also emerged as free.

The distros that followed are derivatives of GNU. Ubuntu is a derivative of Debian GNU/Linux, which actually recognizes this fact.

> sing bash or even gcc is not sufficient to consider a system 'gnu', even by RMS' own statements

The article mentioned Shuttleworth describing an "Ubuntu environment"; this seems to imply more far-reaching goals.

I can't say what the result will be. I hope that others will explain it to me, or that there are many useful articles on the topic, because I can only watch and listen to what others are doing.

> [Note: I have read those links many times, you can stop linking to them in every level of this conversation you engage in now, I think]

I link to them in many threads because they will not otherwise be seen by the person I'm responding to.

[Delmania]

First, the whole GNU/Linux "debate" is nothing more than RMS's ideology getting in the way. Linux refers to a class of operating systems that are mostly POSIX compliant. The fact that the GNU project has implemented a lot of the tools used in most distribution does not mean is has the right to lay claim to the title anymore than the Apache Foundation or Python Software Foundation.

Second, the GNU project will never get the Oscar because the FSF is incredibly inept at spreading it's message.

[mikegerwitz]

> The fact that the GNU project has implemented a lot of the tools used in most distribution does not mean is has the right to lay claim to the title anymore than the Apache Foundation or Python Software Foundation.

GNU is a fully free Unix replacement---an operating system; it is more than a bunch of GNU software:

https://gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html

[Delmania]

This is where there is a division between the way the FSF presents itself, and the way the software is used. Without a kernel, the claims that GNU is a replacement for UNIX is disingenuous. GNU Hurd is not production ready. It is a series of tools, some of where adhere (mostly) to the POSIX standard, and some of which provide other functionality.

If we're going to start naming systems based on the tools, then I use a ZSH/MS/VIM/PSF/Linux distro. There are other providers than GNU.

[mikegerwitz]

> Without a kernel, the claims that GNU is a replacement for UNIX is disingenuous.

GNU/Linux has a kernel---Linux. It forms a fully free operating system.

No free replacement for Unix existed until GNU provided one---that involves much more than just writing utilities. I encourage you to read about the history of the project to understand why:

Summary: https://gnu.org/gnu/thegnuproject.html

More detailed: https://gnu.org/gnu/thegnuproject.html