[theboywho]

You are wrong in so many ways. First of all, you are confusing "Microsoft bringing GNU to Windows" with "this is the first time GNU is brought to Windows." Then you go on to make it seem like if the GNU/Linux debate is just the craziness of some guy called RMS: wrong, many people support this distinction. Then you go off-topic talking about why GNU hurd is a mess. None of this contributes to the key topic here: Microsoft only brought GNU, not Linux and not Ubuntu. A topic where you were wrong again. Please read https://mikegerwitz.com/2016/04/GNU-kWindows

[Delmania]

> many people support this distinction

Really? Maybe I travel in the wrong circles, but most of the time this comes up most people just roll their eyes.

Also, that blog post is terrible, and highlights why the FSF fails so miserably at it's mission. Referring to Windows as "freedom-denying, user-controlling, surveillance system" ignores the fact that most people don't care because it works.

[mikegerwitz]

> Also, that blog post is terrible, and highlights why the FSF fails so miserably at it's mission. Referring to Windows as "freedom-denying, user-controlling, surveillance system" ignores the fact that most people don't care because it works.

These users do not value freedom. And that's their right, however much we disagree with it.

It doesn't make those statements false, and doesn't change the situation. I wrote that article to focus on software freedom, its purpose, and GNU.

We don't ignore the fact that "most people don't care because it works"; that doesn't make sense, because that works against our ideals.

[Delmania]

I suspect those users do care about freedom. The issue is that most people view a computer as just a tool to do work, not a political statement. The concept of software freedom make little sense to most people, and for good reason. The FSF would do well to focus less on the ideology, and more on providing a better user experience for non technical people.

The other issue is the concept of "free software". No matter the claims, when the term free is applied to a product (or product class) like software, the immediate implication that the price is free. The "free as in free speech" doesn't work too well because speech is not a product. Also, Windows doesn't exactly stop me from doing questionable activities, like authoring documents that would be considered subversive.

Telling people that Windows takes away their right to view and modify the source code will at best give lukewarm response, because most people have other concerns.

[mikegerwitz]

> I suspect those users do care about freedom.

I meant software freedom in this context; I should have been more clear.

> The FSF would do well to focus less on the ideology, and more on providing a better user experience for non technical people.

There are plenty of organizations that do that. The FSF exists for very specific reasons---ideology is essential.

> The "free as in free speech" doesn't work too well because speech is not a product

I don't follow.

By "free as in free speech" we mean the same thing as when we say "free as in freedom".

> Also, Windows doesn't exactly stop me from doing questionable activities, like authoring documents that would be considered subversive.

You're not setting a very high bar there ;)

[rmsrmsrms]

> By "free as in free speech" we mean the same thing as when we say "free as in freedom".

If it's freedom, why does the GPL need copyright law?

[mikegerwitz]

> If it's freedom, why does the GPL need copyright law?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

The free software definition specifies four specific freedoms:

  http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

It is essential that the user be able to exercise those freedoms no matter what, which means ensuring that certain conditions on the distribution of the program are met, and that all derivative works are also free. This hack on copyright is called Copyleft, and it uses copyright to grant rights _back_ to the user.

  https://www.gnu.org/copyleft/

Copyright needs to be used because, in many countries, works are proprietary by default; there is no choice; in the US, if you do not explicitly grant rights to others, then all rights are reserved.

[belorn]

Freedom is to be under no restraint apart from standing rules to live by that are common to everyone in the society.

Anarchy is the lack of laws, to be under no other restraint but the law of nature.

Freedom need laws, because the alternative is the law of nature.

[theboywho]

again, you only seem to want to discuss the off-topic subject related to GNU and the FSF positions in general. the thing is, no matter what your position on the GNU/Linux debate is, it doesnt change the fact microsoft brought GNU to windows and not Linux, nor ubuntu. It's just a fact, not an opinion.

[JdeBP]

... as discussed extensively on Hacker News on its own page, including threads such as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11459025 .