[analyst74]

> Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony when they censor free speech, treat people like they are disposable (Falun Gong body organ harvesting by President Zemin), impose Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies as superior to the world as did Nazi Germany believed their blood made them pure?

I can't believe people actually think this way... organ harvesting by the president?? Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies??

[pdeuchler]

not defending the parent, but Falun Gong organ harvesting by the Chinese government is widely considered to be a real human rights crisis by many different countries, the EU, and the UN. It was also admitted by the Deputy Health Minister[0] in 2005.

[0] http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/asia/article2612313...

[analyst74]

Minor correction: organ harvesting by the Chinese government on death row prisoners is considered human rights crisis by many countries, so is the death sentence itself. Also, illegal organ harvesting by criminals probably exists, but is a serious crime.

Organ harvesting falun gong member just because they were part of a cult is a large leap of logic from what the government claims to do, and has been debunked many times. I was there when the cult was declared illegal, the few staunch practitioners in my neighbourhood were harassment by elderly women in neighbourhood watches daily, but few actually went to jail, let alone being sentenced to die or have their organs missing.

On the whole country's level, especially after the organization turned from a cult to anti-CCP dissident group, I won't be surprised some leaders are captured or even killed.

If anything, the successful campaign to legitimize falun gong, and various rumours they spread just shows how easily the public can be manipulated with fake facts. I didn't realize how many people actually believe in those propagandas until today, it has been quite a shocking revelation.

Just to put things in perspective, back before the cult was outlawed, their leader was advocating against seeing doctors when one is ill, and that practicing his school of qigong will cure all their problems.

[pdeuchler]

This is a weird comment, you go from disputing my organ harvesting claim to just repeating Chinese propaganda while at the same time accusing me of doing the same but for the Falun Gong.

Perhaps you can explain where China gets the organs for their record setting transplant rates? Research has shown the organs they account for coming from death row inmates outpaces the number of death row inmates by several orders of magnitude (several thousands of transplants supposedly came from 14 death row inmates in one province that harbored the most Falun Gong during the early 2000s). Please point me to some of these debunkings, because I can't seem to find any by a reputable source. Meanwhile the EU and United Nations have clearly accused the Chinese government of harvesting Falun Gong organs.

But besides that, the Chinese government itself has admitted that over 2,000 Falun Gong members have died as a result of torture and abuse while being held for religious beliefs (in and of itself a human rights violation). Given that the government has been accused of lighting people on fire in public simply to discredit Falun Gong I wouldn't put it past them to harvest organs as well. At one point Falun Gong members made up 50% of long time prisoners in China. If organ harvesting is happening in general (which has been a long standing accusation), the statistics say Falun Gong members were highly likely to be among those abused.

Sure, the president himself might not have ordered a massive conspiracy. Doesn't mean the government doesn't harvest the organs of religious dissidents. It's very strange you'd use the term "legitimize" though, as if people needed to be "legitimate" in order to practice a religious belief.

Oh, and just to put things in perspective we have plenty of holistic medicine crazies here in the US. We just don't demonize, imprison, and execute them.

[kelukelugames]

Keep in mind we live in a country where a sizable population still believes Planned Parenthood harvests fetuses from abortions.

[moreorless]

Folks see the poorly Photoshop'ed pictures and think they are real. I see the cult members in SF parading around with them.

[nitrogen]

I'm not sure that simply expressing astonishment will change anyone's mind. Are these well-known ideas or something completely new? Can you refute them directly or explain where they come from to someone not familiar with Chinese history and current conspiracy theories?

[analyst74]

One does not need familiarity with Chinese history or conspiracy theories to put those claims into the nonsense bin.

But in case it's not as obvious as I see it, here are my assumptions:

- president of China is a public figure

- he is probably not crazy

- most Chinese people are not crazy

- not-crazy people think organ harvesting is really bad

Based on those assumptions (feel free to prove me wrong), he is unlikely to have ordered organ harvesting, and even if he did, it's unlikely he can cover it up.

As to "Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies", I have never heard of it. But if I were to take a guess, he might be referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism, and it has not been a thing for at least several hundred years.

[Jtsummers]

Organ harvesting from prisoners is apparently legal in China (per the Wikipedia article, haven't followed through all the links yet). So apparently some not-crazy people think it's not really bad or crazy people are running the show. Let's assume not-crazy. They have a source of organs, people they intend to execute, and they apparently make use of this. There's a lack (or circa 2006 was) of a detailed registry showing the source of transplant organs. There's some evidence (but not conclusive) that some of those organs were from Falun Gong members.

So China is harvesting organs from prisoners. They have not maintained an accountable record of which prisoners were used that could be offered as verification. Torture and coercion of Falun Gong prisoners does happen. In an environment of poor accountability and oversight with a willingness for brutality, the potential abuse cannot be immediately discarded.

If you think I'm just bashing China, see the US and its various torture abuses over the past 15 (in particular) years. Abu Ghraib is not something that most people would have expected from the US Army, but it happened.

Bush was a public figure. Bush was probably not crazy. Most US people are not crazy. Not-crazy people think that dehumanizing and torture of prisoners is really bad. But it happened.

This is a different scale (thousands, not hundreds) and different issue (killing and harvesting, not torture) but your assumptions are insufficient to discard it out of hand. They do, however, provide a solid basis for skepticism.

But had the Chinese officials and agencies involved done their due diligence they should have had records demonstrating the source of organs. If for no other reason than the medical knowledge for recipients. A closed examination or audit of those records would have sufficed to put this case to rest (for the vast majority of people).

[analyst74]

I think you make an excellent point, and my assumptions are probably not sufficient to lead to my conclusions.

I'd like to point out though, organ harvesting death row prisoners is on a vastly different scale of acceptance than organ harvesting less-informed cult followers who has harmed nobody except themselves. The former is unethical because it incentivizes unjust sentencing, but the wrong part is unjust sentencing, not necessarily organ harvesting(although this is controversial and can get philosophical); the later would affect many millions of people, enraging orders of magnitude more.

Bottom line, did Jiang order the crackdown of falun gong and resulting in some being tortured or even sentenced to die? Yes. Did he order organ harvesting of falun gong members? Most definitely not.

[jorgecurio]

that makes zero sense

[kelukelugames]

A lot of people in the West hate China. Before 9/11, we were really despised and demonized in the US. Probably even worse than Muslims are treated today because at least some us defend them. It's kind of funny the crazy things Americans are willing to believe. Here is the most ridiculous example: a Chinese artist did a series of photographs where he ate a cooked human fetus prop. A white journalist saw the photos, assumed it was real, and wrote an article that made the rounds. Look at those Han barbarians and their baby eating!