[simi_]

Moving from the UK to Germany, I chose Deutsche Bank based on its reputation.

Pros:

* English! There is always someone on the phone who can speak English, and they can even send their letters in English. (for Germany, this is very rare)

* More "high touch" - there is a person assigned to your account

* I can't remember if this was the case in UK, but I noticed that transfers to some Western EU countries have no fees and happen almost instantly. Yay!

Cons:

* Buggy app and web interface, sometimes the login fails or hangs randomly (revenue was €31.95 billion in 2014, it's understandable that they can't afford spending too much on this)

* The way to authorise online transactions is with a piece of paper with 100 codes printed on it (TAN list). This was a shock, but it's apparently common here.

* Taking advantage of new customers. They offered me a loan which I later realised had a ridiculous interest rate. (I guess this isn't exclusive to DB, but silly me expected that a good, more prestigious bank would value longer term customer relationships)

* Stupid useless cards. The default account (€5/month) comes with a card (EC Karte) that can only be used at German ATMs and in most German stores. Good luck trying to do anything online with it. For that you need a credit card (extra €5/month), the very idea of something like VISA Debit seems completely alien to Germans.

[Udo]

I'm a (german) DB customer as well, and I can't say I share a lot of these experiences.

> Buggy app and web interface, sometimes the login fails or hangs randomly

This never happened to me, maybe I'm just lucky. There used to be a problem with the web interface when you entered the banking system's URL without "https://" but that's not really the same.

> The way to authorise online transactions is with a piece of paper with 100 codes printed on it (TAN list)

I think the TAN list is just there to get you started (and for some technophobic Germans). I used it to set up SMS TANs immediately, and I think there is still an option for a dedicated TAN generator device (at least there used to be). Don't use the TAN list!

> Stupid useless cards. The default account (€5/month) comes with a card (EC Karte) that can only be used at German ATMs and in most German stores.

An EC Card is the thing you need to go shopping in Germany. It's entirely appropriate for this country, and contrary to what you claim it works just fine internationally (at least mine does). While it's true that some banks offer a separate VISA credit card, it shouldn't be a problem for you to get one elsewhere. As for VISA debit cards, I'm not sure if those even exist in Germany.

[StudyAnimal]

Actually most of the time German VISA and MasterCards work as a debit card. Payments are cleared from your checking account / Giro, instantly or nightly, so you are never really in debt, rather than being a second account that is always negative and partially or fully paid off each month. I am not sure which type is more common, but I usually ended up with the debit card style.

[whyever]

Actually the TAN list is probably more secure than SMS TAN and push TAN, which have been hacked in the past.

[distances]

> Don't use the TAN list!

What's behind this recommendation?

[dualogy]

> The way to authorise online transactions is with a piece of paper with 100 codes printed on it (TAN list). This was a shock, but it's apparently common here.

Well whoever can hack your password, mobile TAN or TAN reader device will likely still not hack into your paper TAN list. There's something to be said for a "physical layer".

[mschuster91]

> Well whoever can hack your password, mobile TAN or TAN reader device will likely still not hack into your paper TAN list.

They are frequently hacked by phishing (intercepting the bank site, changing out the reciever and asking for the TAN code nevertheless). chipTAN for example works by optically transmitting the transaction details to a small handheld device with your banking card inserted, and the handheld device shows you the IBAN and amount... foolproof.

http://business.chip.de/bii/1/6/5/0/1/8/6/0/chipTAN_sparkass... for an example pic of such a handheld device.

[kecks]

VISA debit isn't available in NL either. I get the impressions very few countries actually give out these cards.

[SyneRyder]

In Australia, pretty much every bank account will include a free Visa / Mastercard debit card, built-in to your ATM card. You can also buy them in supermarkets as reloadable gift cards, or post offices as international travel cards. Though they typically won't work in Germany, since most German stores only accept EC Cards and not Visa / Mastercard.

[elcapitan]

Different countries, different markets, right? Most Germans don't have a CC (if so, then often only for vacation). Inside Germany, the preferred payment version is direct debit. For ecommerce usually paypal as well. Everybody has an EC card (=debit card) issued by their bank and uses that for paying without cash in shops. Even with a CC you wouldn't be able to pay in many of them.

[StudyAnimal]

I don't know many Germans that do not have a credit card these days. You are right that the EC card gets used day-to-day (but maybe less than cash) but most Germans have a credit card for online shopping.

[morsch]

About a third of Germans have a credit card. As a comparison, it's 75% in the US.

http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/konjunktur/nachrichten/z...

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/FinancialSecurity/story?id=129664

[pawelkomarnicki]

I have ING DiBa and it is the cheapest account ever here in Germany — they even give you a free VISA card, and free withdrawals in Germany and rest of the world. The only difference is that there's no physical office, so you have to use their website, which is good, and never had problems with it.

[morsch]

Deutsche Bank is pretty expensive. The debit card (which is useless for shopping online, although most local online stores offer other alternatives to credit cards) is free for most people, and I think I pay about 20 EUR/year for my credit card. This is with another large bank.

[distances]

> The way to authorise online transactions is with a piece of paper with 100 codes printed on it (TAN list). This was a shock, but it's apparently common here.

This is what I've had with all European banks. It's simple, secure and always in your wallet. What's the method you are accustomed to in the UK?

Some banks do an extra validation step in case of unexpected transfers (such as a large sum, or a new foreign destination account) by sending the required TAN index by SMS. You'll then look up the matching TAN from your list an put that in.

[taejo]

> * I can't remember if this was the case in UK, but I noticed that transfers to some Western EU countries

This is the law for all Euro-denominated transfers in the EU (even in the UK -- but unless your account is Euro-denominated they can still make money off the forex).