[Shivetya]

This. The fix for the pay issues is for the over supply to go away. If we attempt to legislate or worse, unionize the field, we will just end up with many who want to work with no job as requirements will spell out exactly who gets employed and how, effectively locking out any who cannot get on board.

I still of the opinion that the university system needs a good hair cut. They are able to rake in billions of federal dollars for student loans and unlike the medical care field where federal money also goes no attempt is made to course rates. As in, if you want students on federal loans this is what you can charge per course hour for this course.

[HarryHirsch]

The problem with the market-based approach is that the oversupply won't go away anytime soon. Right now there is a surfeit of chemists on the East Coast from the Dow-Dupont merger that added to the surfeit from the pharma crisis that started fifteen years ago and hasn't really ended.

What exactly is wrong with the union-based approach (the AMA works rather nicely for physicians), and why can't the US have a proper science policy?

[bunderbunder]

The AMA does work rather nicely for physicians, but it's less clear that it works nicely for patients. There's a strong argument to be made that the USA suffers from a chronic undersupply of physicians, and that certainly boosts doctor pay but it comes at the cost of patients having to pay higher prices for poorer quality service.

The AMA also has the advantage of being an incumbent. If we were to hypothesize a similar national organization for American academics that was attempting to follow a similar strategy, their first problem would be how to generate the artificial undersupply that allows members of its profession to enjoy such a favorable job market in the first place. I'm guessing anything that accomplishes that goal more quickly than waiting for a market correction would, would end up being a pretty painful experience for the large number of folks who find themselves forcibly shoved out of academia.

[kevin_thibedeau]

From what doctor's have told me, the AMA exists to serve itself and the few conducting research.

[Omniusaspirer]

Yep, the general sentiment among doctors is that they've failed to advocate for themselves both in the public sphere and government. Comparisons are frequently drawn between themselves and nursing groups who have lobbied very successfully for both expanded scope of practice and better workplace conditions.

[dnautics]

Unions are most valuable for laborers and society when labor is fungible. Assembly line work, for example, really really ought to be unionized for the benefits of the worker, society, and probably the employer comes out a bit ahead too (expectations are set, wage negotiation is simplified).

Academic research is very not fungible. If you think there's a 10x programmer, there's a 50x scientist, a handful more at 10x, and the median (yes,median) "nominal" scientist is probably -2x.

A unionized system will protect the -2x and the 50xs, being treated equally to these idiots, will drop out.

I'm all for free association, if scientists want to unionize, that's up to them, but the broader social consequences will not be pretty.

[kaitai]

Unions are not for academic researchers. Unions are for adjuncts teaching composition, or calculus, or chem 101. If you don't think someone who is hired on a Tuesday to teach a semester-long class starting on a Wednesday is an interchangeable commodity... well, suffice it to say that people hired as adjuncts to teach composition/art history/algebra/precalc/calc/mechanics are viewed entirely as commodities in any city large enough to have cheap housing.

Students will definitely come out ahead if their teachers have time and space to 1) read the syllabus before showing up to class, 2) prepare for class, 3) hold office hours, and 4) store graded materials. Things a student can't reliably do if the teacher is a poorly-treated adjunct: a) get a letter of recommendation (no time!), b) dispute a grade the next semester (tests aren't stored on campus!), c) have comfortable office hours (meet in a hallway, sitting on a floor, because there is no office!).

[dnautics]

Sorry the post immediately above mine referenced researchers, and I forgot about op. I think there's a very good case for unionizing non-research adjuncts.

[chrisseaton]

But adjuncts aren't doing research are they? They're teaching the courses that the research-level staff don't want to do.

[dnautics]

Yes, you are correct, and I think there is a good case for unionizing adjuncts, I just got lost in the post above mine, and forgot about op.

[SilasX]

The median scientist undoes the work of two 1x-ers? Seriously? Could you elaborate on your basis for saying that?