[4k]

I am member of a minority, and have had more than one chance to go to the HR to report "being racially abused" and present the narrative in such a way that anyone would be convinced it was horrible.

Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual harassment. I get the impression that the "victim" here is trying to take advantage of the situation. She never asks the inappropriate person to stop here, instead goes to HR. I mean just in plain words "Please don't, this is inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge majority of cases.

> During the HR investigation that ensued, I remember being shamed by a female colleague who thought I was blowing the situation out of proportion. She thought I was being overly sensitive, and that it was wrong of me to report my manager. That hurt. I thought she would’ve naturally supported me.

"Being shamed"? What if that female colleague honestly thought that she was blowing the situation out of proportion? A mere disagreement is shaming? Just because someone thinks they are 'sexually harassed' doesn't make them right automatically. I mean is there any scenario where someone claiming they are harassed could be on the wrong side of the things (or blowing things out of proportion)? It seems the SF/valley area atleast is too politically correct to even entertain the possibility that the female could possibly be wrong or making a mistake. Anyone that doesn't agree with a narrow notion of SJW equality is literally the devil. And this sort of trend has made 'being victim' a somewhat coveted status that can be used for gaining publicity/career advances.

[thedz]

> Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual harassment. I get the impression that the "victim" here is trying to take advantage of the situation. She never asks the inappropriate person to stop here, instead goes to HR. I mean just in plain words "Please don't, this is inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge majority of cases.

1. Your implicit dismissal of her as a victim by using quotes is, frankly, a pretty large part of the reason why women feel so frustrated in tech. Here you are, a third party to this situation, automatically assuming that she's somehow someone who is purposely trying to take advantage of a situation.

2. Why is it the woman's responsibility to tell her male manager that it's inappropriate to ask her to sit on his lap? I mean, c'mon. I'll ask a coworker to stop if he's playing his music too loudly, but this is hardly in the same league. Plus, he's in a position of power over her, as her manager.

3. This situation is _precisely_ why there's an HR department.

[dawnbreez]

1. Parent comment's dismissal is based upon details revealed in the article, or rather details that weren't revealed. He suspects that, since the victim escalated immediately, the victim may not have wanted a peaceful resolution. We don't have the full picture, but what we have suggests that there were other ways to handle it.

2. Yes, I expect you to say that you're upset by the situation. I cannot read your mind; most people can't read your mind either, and many of them don't know the line between a 'joke' and harassment. Telling someone you don't like what they're doing is a crucial step, because otherwise they may assume nothing is wrong. We want the boss to learn that his joke is not funny, and to do that sometimes you have to say it to his face.

3. Neither side is communicating well, which is indeed why HR exists. It's also possible that the boss would've continued after being told explicitly to stop. This does not mean you reach for HR's hotline the moment something goes wrong. You don't respond to a slap by pulling a knife, and you don't respond to a knife with a nuke--at least, not without examining other options.

[unprepare]

> We don't have the full picture, but what we have suggests that there were other ways to handle it.

So it's safest to assume that the victim of sexual harassment is at fault, of course.

> because otherwise they may assume nothing is wrong.

So in this scenario, you're taking the stance that the Manager at Google has no concept that asking an inferior employee to sit on his lap could be unacceptable workplace behavior?

That doesn't seem like a generous read to you? You honestly think that this man, who has been working in a professional environment for at least a decade, was completely unaware that asking an employee to sit on his lap could possibly be construed as sexual misconduct?

So to review:

victim of sexual misconduct: obvious potential liar

perpetrator of sexual misconduct: blameless victim of ignorance

Got it.

[dawnbreez]

I am taking this stance because you, in your infinite wisdom, have assumed there are no possibilities other than the manager being the literal Devil. To compensate, I am taking the opposing position, so at least both ends of the spectrum of possible arguments are heard.

That having been said, talking about your problems is a basic communication skill that everyone who's graduated high school really should have, since it helps ensure that everyone learns from their mistakes and nobody has to be fired. Something I've noticed often in thses sorts of conversations is that people assume their point got across even if the other person acts like they aren't reading the subtle social cues.

TL;DR: I'm arguing with you because you're not thinking about both ends, and someone's gotta think of the other possibilities if we're to be sure that we're right; further, you shouldn't rely on subtlety to work with someone who can't handle subtlety. That's like expecting Java to be weakly typed. You gotta rule out the possibility that they're just stupid before you assume they're a dick.

[tomp]

So to review:

everybody: obvious potential liar

everybody: potential blameless victim of ignorance

[daveguy]

Trying to get a coworker to sit on your lap and telling her about your sexual prowess is 100%, no room for uncertaintainty, sexual harassment. I'm not sure what minority you hail from, but if the environment you were raised in considers that "not sexual harassment" then you need to learn from this story and adjust your behavior appropriately to make sure you aren't sexually harassing in your workplace.

[4k]

To be fair, in the write-up, she says she laughed at the sexual comments made by her manager.

>I remember thinking to myself, “Did I do something to encourage this kind of behaviour?” I had uncomfortably laughed at some of the sexual comments my manager had made because I didn’t know how else to react as a junior member of the team. Should I not have done that?

And the facts about her 'harassment' are covered in one sentence in the whole article.

> In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility, and told that “all men go through an Asian fetish at some time,”

She doesn't provide any context and keeps it as vague as possible. If you think about it, all/most of those things could have been light jokes that weren't specifically targeted to her. And I am certainly not defending her manager, but I still maintain that she did use this situation to her advantage. Getting a promotion, writing about it several years later in an attempt to promote her current startup.

[bobwaycott]

> To be fair, in the write-up, she says she laughed at the sexual comments made by her manager.

No. That is neither a fair nor accurate paraphrasing of what the author said. That you would say this and then quote her is rather astounding.

She says quite clearly that she laughed uncomfortably because she didn't know how else to react.

> And the facts about her 'harassment' are covered in one sentence in the whole article.

She doesn't owe you or any other reader on the internet any fucking details whatsoever about her experience being harassed. You are nobody. She is not obligated to relive in excruciating details, the experiences she is referencing. She references the HR investigation. She explains how, in the context of the HR investigation--about which she rightly owes you no further details--she had to be:

> ...as specific as possible about all the infractions, the details, and the timelines. [She] had to recount any potential witnesses, for corroboration purposes. [She] felt humiliated. [She] cried.

There was disciplinary action with which she felt satisfied. HR departments don't typically take disciplinary action if they cannot find enough evidence to warrant such action.

Do you know what sexual harassment is?[1] A victim is not required to, and often is not comfortable, asking the person who is making their workplace uncomfortable to stop. HR exists precisely for these kinds of situations. The unwanted sexual harassment should not happen in the first place. It's not a victim's fault for deciding to go directly to HR.

Let's go ahead and review what occurred in one single week, as a new hire:

- kissed on the cheek

- asked to sit on her manager's lap

- offered unwanted details about her manager's sex life

- made the object of an apologist-style "Asian fetish"

So, out of curiosity, if you were a manager with a new female hire, who is an attractive Asian woman, help me understand ...

1. What context excuses and makes it not sexual harassment to kiss the new hire on the cheek uninvited? What light joke that wasn't specifically targeted at her did she miss when she was kissed on the cheek?

2. What context excuses and makes it not sexual harassment to ask a new female employee to sit on your lap? What light joke that wasn't specifically targeted at her did she miss when she was asked to sit on her manager's lap?

3. What context excuses and makes it not sexual harassment to divulge details about your sex life to your new female hire? What light joke that wasn't specifically targeted at her did she miss when she was told details of her manager's sex life?

4. What context excuses and makes it not sexual harassment to tell an Asian female employee that "all men go through an Asian fetish at some time"? What light joke that wasn't specifically targeted at her did she miss when she, an Asian woman, was told that all men have an Asian fetish? That is fucking textbook example of identifying a subject as the object of desire, then telling them they are the object of your desire, with disgusting apologist bullshit to try and make it not seem like you have any control over it.

All of this--and who knows, maybe more that wasn't divulged in the article--is sexual harassment. Even in cultures that kiss on the cheek, it's a token of familiarity not employed by strangers. SV does not have this culture. I've worked with a lot of different women over the years, in a number of professions. I've never kissed any of them on the cheek, uninvited or otherwise. I've dated a few women I've worked with, too--still never kissed any of them on the cheek in the workplace. Or asked them to sit on my lap. Or offered up details of my sex life. Or told them I had an X fetish, where they were clearly easily identified as X.

> And I am certainly not defending her manager...

You absolutely are.

---

[1] http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/fs-sex.cfm

[qb45]

The really creepy part is not any particular of his unfortunate "advances", but the fact that he stubbornly continued them for few days despite the girl being completely turned off and freaked out by him.

> "Please don't, this is inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge majority of cases.

It depends. If there are witnesses, sure. But in private, the guy has a choice - treat this seriously and feel bad about what he'd just done or try to downplay it as a tease and continue hitting on her expecting that "things will work out". Some choose the former, some choose the latter. Some really go to great lengths to avoid admitting they are wrong.

Then there is also the question, whether somebody who behaves as if he couldn't even tell if a girl is into him or not should actually be managing a team of people.

[4k]

> but the fact that he stubbornly continued them for few days without noticing that the girl is completely turned off and freaked out by him.

She says she laughed at the sexual comments made by her manager.

> I remember thinking to myself, “Did I do something to encourage this kind of behaviour?” I had uncomfortably laughed at some of the sexual comments my manager had made because I didn’t know how else to react as a junior member of the team. Should I not have done that?

[bobwaycott]

She laughed uncomfortably because she didn't know how else to react.

Have you never uncomfortably laughed before? It's a pretty typical, and often automatic, reaction to situations for humans. It is also pretty easy to spot. It never ever means I'm totally cool with this; carry on.

[qb45]

Are you really unable to tell when someone is uncomfortably laughing (her words) at some silly remark because everybody around is laughing too versus actually enjoying the joke? Are you really unable to tell when someone doesn't like your company?

[dawnbreez]

It's possible. I have trouble with it.

Which is, incidentally, why I try to avoid dirty jokes until I know my present company likes dirty jokes. This manager may not have figured that out.

[TazeTSchnitzel]

> Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual harassment.

Perhaps you do not understand what "sexual harassment" constitutes in typical usage, then.