[underbluewaters]

I like your reasoning. I'm not ready to come over to the other side yet, but I agree with most of what you said. My opposition to vegetarianism mostly comes from some unusual experiences, but as far as eating "factory farmed" meat I think I probably just continue with that because of the social conditioning you mention.

Consider this:

1) I'm raising my own chickens right now. My wife coaxed a wild hen to start laying her clutch of eggs in a safe place that I defended from mongoose (an invasive species here), and we build a fenced area to protect them once hatched. Had we not done this, they almost certainly would have all been killed by mongoose. Some obviously do survive (there are wild chickens walking around), but the mortality rate is extremely high. I'm now in the process of butchering 6/7 of the roosters now that they are mature. In my opinion these roosters actually got the better end of the bargain. They had a good life outside, were fed well, and even got a chance to mate thanks to the huge amount of effort I put into keeping them safe and housing them. Even if I wanted to, I could not keep these 7 roosters as just pets as they would kill each other. What do you think of the morality of that?

2) I go out freediving and hunt and spear fish for food. It's very hard to learn, and involves empathizing and understanding the personality of each different species I target. I do remove invasive species from the reef when I get a chance, but it's not a mutualistic relationship like with the chickens. Still, it feels more "right" than eating meat out of a package because I'm experiencing a whole different aspect of life by joining part of the food chain. I have to look my prey in the eye, learn their habits and even take risks dealing with larger and stronger animals (sharks) that could eat me. The ethical relationship with those individual prey is maybe not positive, but I have a much better relationship with the environment around me that simply going out and observing via snorkeling doesn't seem to provide.

I guess the point I'm making is that as I get closer to a natural relationship to animals as food, and away from packaged bodies in a supermarket, the less unethical it appears to me personally.

[JoeAltmaier]

There's an ethical argument that, using our brains to (cynically) raise meat animals, we've poisoned our motive morally. Never mind how 'naturally'; never mind how much better the lives of the animals. The knowledge that its all really for tasty sandwiches compromises the moral aspect.

Supermarket packaging certainly helps to make it seem clinical and a little ghastly; but avoiding that doesn't change the morals at all.

Disclaimer: I eat meat daily, with gusto.