[moonchrome]

>despite the evidence to the contrary in the form of such low historic participation by women and people of color in tech.

Are asians suddenly white and only black people are people of color ? I see asians significantly represented in the tech community (especially India with English history and emigration to west). And they are at all levels of tech from CEO to us regular code monkeys.

[SwellJoe]

Do you believe that because Asian folks have reasonable (maybe even over-) representation in tech, that tech is an inclusive environment for all people of color, as well as women?

Edit: And, another thing!...I believe I've personally seen more anti-Asian racism in tech than most other kinds of racism (though the extreme level of sexism in tech far surpasses any racism I've seen). Fake Indian accents and jokes about English skills abound among nerd circles, for example. It may merely be because I know more Asian tech workers than folks from other races and have worked in environments with a reasonably large Asian population. It is possible to ignore racism or sexism and power through and keep doing your job, but it doesn't mean the environment is welcoming or inclusive.

[moonchrome]

>Do you believe that because Asian folks have reasonable (maybe even over-) representation in tech, that tech is an inclusive environment for all people of color, as well as women?

IMO tech industry is the most meritocratic sector I've seen, even more the little I've seen from academia. Note - it's far from being some ideal meritocracy, there's plenty of PHB, politics and plain old corporate bullshit, but low barriers to entry, highly competitive environment, high impact work with low iteration time and the scaling model of software really helps steer incentives towards actually hiring the best person for the job.

I believe the reason these other groups are not represented in tech is mostly because of factors outside of tech industry (social) and tech industry shouldn't be reaching backwards to support underrepresented groups simply because they are underrepresented. If the society sees a problem with this imbalance then they are free to fix the issue at the source instead of trying to fix a thing that works relatively well.

[SwellJoe]

I don't want to keep harping on the "as a white dude" theme, here, but that's what I keep hearing. As white dudes we don't see race or gender, because we aren't made to see it in our daily lives.

Tech is a meritocracy for white dudes. For everyone else, it is a little bit meritocracy, and a little bit toxic environment where they are made to feel their minority status on a regular basis. I'm not saying this because I want white dudes to feel guilty, or I don't want white dudes to continue to feel welcome in tech communities (again, I'm a white dude). But, until we acknowledge that women at tech conferences are simply not treated the same as white dudes; black folks are not treated the same as white applicants when applying for jobs; trans folks are gendered incorrectly casually or jokingly (I've seen it happen here at HN numerous times); we're contributing to the problem.

"tech industry shouldn't be reaching backwards to support underrepresented groups simply because they are underrepresented"

So, I'm confident you aren't intending to be racist or sexist...but, do you realize what you're suggesting here? That welcoming women and people of color into our communities is to "reach backwards"? Are you genuinely suggesting there are no women or people of color that are capable of contributing to projects you work on? That their contribution would be detrimental to a project?

They are underrepresented in many communities because they have been pushed out, repeatedly. Certainly, there are systemic problems, as well. And until we have large numbers of female hackers and black and brown hackers in the world at large, we won't see significant numbers of them in our communities. But, we've been told by women who are hackers that they've been made to feel unwelcome, unsafe, harassed. We've been told by black and brown folks who are hackers (sometimes impressively so) that they've experienced racism. And, that those situations have led to them leaving or never joining in the first place. Why do so many white dudes want to insist those stories are lies?

"If the society sees a problem with this imbalance then they are free to fix the issue at the source instead of trying to fix a thing that works relatively well."

So, it is society's responsibility to make the open source projects we work on more inclusive? I don't follow. I think we should start with what we have the most direct control over. I have commit bits on a handful of large open source projects. I can make something happen there. I don't have "commit bits" on the education system, the police, the federal or local government, television or movies, or much of anything else.

In short, you say we're trying to fix something that isn't broken...but, I believe women and people of color when they tell me that it is broken for them. I don't see it; it's never been broken for me. But, I'm white and male in America. The system (whatever "system" we're talking about) is pretty much always functional for me.

[moonchrome]

> As white dudes we don't see race or gender, because we aren't made to see it in our daily lives.

Speak for yourself. I've worked in print and manufacturing before starting programming - I've seen factory workers disregard female supervisor orders and regularly fake the tasks, commenting on her "lack of sex", "hormones", even to their face and regularly behind their back etc. At the same time they would shut up and do their shit when told the same thing by a male super. I've seen old department manager lead print finish section with a bunch of women in low skill/paying roles literally talk to them like they are his lessers and he was actively hostile and attempted to sabotage a woman who got hired as an engineer (which outranks him in terms of skill).

I've seen real sexism, and I've also seen discrimination based on nationality where it actually impacts people every day jobs and hiring/firing/promotions.

Calling the things I see described as examples of sexism and racism and what I've personally seen on job is a joke compared to what women and foreigners had to go through in low skilled industries with more uneducated and older people.

Programmers like you live in a bubble - I see people like you complain about culture/wages/work conditions in tech industry without having any grasp on what the world looks like outside of tech. I've met guys who work with electricity or work on highly dangerous positions where their life is at risk at any moment and your first mistake could very well be your last, people working in hazardous environments that 100% take a physical tool on you (eg. high probability you will end up with cancer and the likes) - and even with 20+ years of experience at the same job they were making about the same what I was getting when I started coding and my pay only grew since then. I earned more than a person who went through med school and if I fucked up nobody died or got disabled. Programmers have it super good right now and the industry is filled with highly educated smart people

[nijiko]

There are more Asians, and Indians doing technology than "white dudes" statistically speaking white people are the minority.

[SwellJoe]

No, there aren't. At least, not in the US.

[nijiko]

you obviously haven't been to SF