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by josephpoon 3824 days ago
The paper never refers to hubs, the necessity of a handful of entities routing payments a-la Visa has never been part of the design. There are certainly more connected nodes, but that's true in any P2P system (as well as nodes with higher uptime). Additionally the paper refers to larger blocks, LN doesn't resolve underlying block capacity issues alone, it could help mitigate its problems significantly -- much like how a switched network helps resolve bandwidth (but you still might want faster connections).

I've never argued that it is a dead certainty, certainly less so than you have argued that arbitrarily large blocksizes are the only solution.

Quite frankly, I don't understand why you're so butthurt with my comment, I've stated that I think multiple solutions are best, and have explicitly avoided the politicization with this community.

> I can assure you, the CS understanding of the people who disagree with you (like Chris, Gavin, myself and Satoshi) is just fine

I'm pretty sure your comments don't accurately represents Gavin's view (AFAIK, he also thinks we need to explore many technical approaches), nor do you speak for Satoshi (current understanding of bitcoin's risks is significantly different than 2011).

Engineering costs are one thing, technical impossibilities are another. It's not credibly possible for bitcoin to exist in its current form while also being able to make a $0.0001 payment. I agree there are some aspects to consider, esp with maximizing the social value of the network and testing it out, though. Certainly, for all we know there may be unaccounted issues, but that's the case for bitcoin as well (51% risks are still unknown).

For those who are not paying attention to the bitcoin discussions, I have always stated many transactions will still be on-chain (e.g. large directional flows, but paying $0.001 has not been feasible for a very long time in Bitcoin, LN enables those payments to exist using Bitcoin again).

2 comments

> It's not credibly possible for bitcoin to exist in its current form while also being able to make a $0.0001 payment.

Of course it is. I've made such payments many times over the years. The only reason it's not currently possible is because the Bitcoin Core developers have deliberately forced the network to run out of capacity instead of doing what the community wanted and raising the block size limit. So now the fees are huge, payments are flaky and users are rightly complaining that the system they rather liked appears to be losing any advantages it had over the competition.

Saying "it isn't feasible" or "not credibly possible" when it was repeatedly done right up until very recently is ... not great.

The proposed Lightning Network has received some very strong technical criticism, such as Chris Pacia's article. I wrote a similar one months ago that touched on different issues. I have not seen much in the way of answers to these criticisms.

> The only reason it's not currently possible is because the Bitcoin Core developers have deliberately forced the network to run out of capacity

The Bitcoin developers suspect that there is nearly unlimited demand for $0.000000000000000000001 bitcoin transactions (micropayments). "Unlimited demand" is another way of saying "denial-of-service vulnerability".

I think that "forced the network" is tiresome allegation-making. The developers did not force the network to have an asymmetric bandwidth graph, but they definitely have an interest in countering centralization pressure (such as the increase in resource requirements derived from increasing transaction rate directly through the block size parameter). ....

I know you have long-standing disagreements with Bitcoin Core developers, but this does not seem like good reason to gloss over their reasoning.

> Saying "it isn't feasible" or "not credibly possible" when it was repeatedly done right up until very recently is ... not great.

"What they call a 'centralization pressure' was working fine right up until some limitations on that 'centralization pressure' were implemented!"

> instead of doing what the community wanted and raising the block size limit

Btw "what the community wants" is irrelevant when trying to determine feasibility; sum of community-desire-weight does not make community-desired options more/less feasible.

> The paper never refers to hubs, the necessity of a handful of entities routing payments a-la Visa has never been part of the design.

Yet in person the opposite is true. I've heard Tadje refer to large hubs plenty of times.

As for your comment about CS understanding, curious to know, what are your credentials? What's your background in algorithms, networks and software engineering? There is no biographical data on the Lightning network website.