[Asbostos]

Not trying to be offensive, but did you feel the need to add the statement abut self-fulfilling prophecies because making a bare claim like "I believe in some stereotypes" is so politically sensitive that you're afraid of being judged as a racist or sexist? This is similar to the sort of complains the author has about older research into stereotypes assuming they were inaccurate without testing them - no doubt they made that assumption to protect themselves from allegations of racism/sexism/etc.

The self-fulfilling prophecy argument is a way to say "OK, they might be true, but the blame lies with some other group of oppressors and it's still not an innate quality of the subjects themselves, so it's still not really fundamentally true.". Why shouldn't it be an innate quality? Maybe women really do earn less than men because of something different in how men and women earn money, not because men oppress women with their stereotypes.

Without research, I don't think it's any more reasonable to say "stereotypes are mainly accurate because they're self-fulfilling prophecies" than to say "stereotypes are mainly accurate because groups of people are naturally different.".

[ZenoArrow]

> "Without research, I don't think it's any more reasonable to say "stereotypes are mainly accurate because they're self-fulfilling prophecies" than to say "stereotypes are mainly accurate because groups of people are naturally different."."

First of all, calm down, I'm not here to argue with you.

I made a statement about what I believe. I assumed that using the word 'believe' would make it clear that I was stating a personal opinion, it seems that wasn't clear enough.

An important difference between my personal opinion and the science in the linked article is that I never attempted to pass off my opinion as scientifically proven. If the linked article had merely stated some compelling evidence to consider, then I wouldn't have bothered replying. My argument against it is that it makes large claims based on very limited evidence. Perhaps that's the best evidence we have so far, but I certainly wouldn't say it's in any way strong enough for the conclusions being pointed to.

As for my own beliefs, I don't think they're controversial, nor am I attempting to hide anything. I believe that stereotypes can (note: not in all cases) be true because they become a self-fulfilling prophecy. How so? By setting expectations on accepted behavior.

Consider the following: It is a common stereotype that men are more prone to have stronger sexual urges, and this is used to excuse many different behaviours. Sexual objectification of women is one such behaviour, we see this as normal because of the stereotype that men are overwhelmed by such stimulus, and so cannot be held as responsible for such behaviour. The more common the stereotype becomes, the more people use the stereotype to set expectations, which influences what becomes normal for the group in question, regardless of whether it was originally true or not.

[Asbostos]

It's OK to argue. That's how we learn to see different viewpoints, rather than pretending to agree for sake of making everyone happy.

I see you're talking about what I would call culture or customs, rather than the broader range of qualities that stereotypes can include - things that might (if they were true) apply to those same groups across different cultures.

There's a kind of moral leap people are making if they say "Men have a harder time controlling their sexual urges, therefore it's OK for men to objectify women." You could still have the same stereotype with a different conclusion by saying "Men have a harder time controlling their sexual urges, so we should be more vigilant about men when we're trying to catch somebody objectifying women." This seems to be how it ended up with blacks and crime. I'd say the outcomes that we don't like don't require the stereotypes, so the stereotypes themselves aren't harmful and it's OK if they turn out to be fundamentally true.

[ZenoArrow]

> "It's OK to argue. That's how we learn to see different viewpoints, rather than pretending to agree for sake of making everyone happy."

Discussion is fine, disagreement is fine, but arguing is more than just disagreement. If we can discuss respectfully then we can continue.

> "This seems to be how it ended up with blacks and crime. I'd say the outcomes that we don't like don't require the stereotypes, so the stereotypes themselves aren't harmful and it's OK if they turn out to be fundamentally true."

Regarding blacks and crime, which statistics is this backed up by? I suspect the truth may be more nuanced than a simple correlation, but lets start with the statistics.