[MaulingMonkey]

> a flat system ends up being a battle for leadership which puts the smart and commanding at the top

The problem is you've described someone entirely different, here, IMO.

A smart leader isn't the loudest. Because they know when to listen to their subordinates, and don't need to be the loudest to command attention when they do speak.

They don't need to be a jerk, or rely on bullying - for this is morale destroying counterproductive pettiness, and again unnecessary when it comes to commanding attention and respect. It might not chase away all of your talent, but it will chase away some of it, who will leave for greener pastures where they're respected.

In my experience, the "Rock star dev who's also a jerk" was both the worst leader and the worst dev. They wrote a bunch of short sighted hacks - making them "productive" "rock stars" - that constantly broke things that other people had to fix. They were quick to assume their half baked ideas of how to proceed were the one true way - and that you were an idiot for thinking otherwise - and quick to dismiss any and all concerns about things they overlooked in their plans. It was bad enough that the best way to get anything done ended up being to hide it from the "rock star dev who's also a jerk". This is the antithesis of what good leadership should result in. That they were too busy doing development to do any real leadership was perhaps a blessing.

That's not to say the ideal leader can't ever be loud, or stern, or a dev. These can all be useful qualities at times. But they're not "a jerk", and may find they have less time available to spend on development in response to the burdens of leadership.

[gnaritas]

> In my experience, the "Rock star dev who's also a jerk" was both the worst leader and the worst dev. They wrote a bunch of short sighted hacks - making them "productive" "rock stars" - that constantly broke things that other people had to fix.

Those are not rock star devs, those are just shitty devs. The term rock star means your best devs, not your worst, by definition. If you're applying the label to shitty devs, you've missed the point of the term. A rock star is someone who's awesome, that's the entire point of the slang.

[crznp]

I see a rock star dev as the guy that seems the best from the outside: most likely because he completes tasks fast at the expense of being maintainable, documented, or understood by the rest of the team. The rock star must be smart because they're using a ton of technologies that nobody else understands. But do you really want that?

Part of the disagreement is surely semantics: if you want to define "rock star" as the best, then I guess they're the best (however you measure that).

But being a jerk is not semantics. If that works for your organization, great. But I don't want to have to deal with that.

[gnaritas]

> I see a rock star dev as the guy that seems the best from the outside: most likely because he completes tasks fast at the expense of being maintainable, documented, or understood by the rest of the team.

That's not a rock-star, it's not what the term means.

As for your main point, most people don't want to deal with jerks, so what? That doesn't mean anything when it comes to whether the jerk is a good leader or not. Lots of leaders are jerks, it's rather common to people who feel "they should be in charge".

Leaders are those who take charge, and lead. Naturally they find ways to take charge of a leaderless group and while you want to say they shouldn't be the leader, they are by virtue of being the only leader there. The smart guy you think would make a better leader, generally doesn't want to be leader and will let the jerk take charge; that actually disqualifies them as good leaders because a good leader wouldn't do that.

[MaulingMonkey]

> That's not a rock-star, it's not what the term means.

How are we defining "your best devs" then, exactly, if "rock star who's also a jerk" isn't a contradiction?

> As for your main point, most people don't want to deal with jerks, so what? That doesn't mean anything when it comes to whether the jerk is a good leader or not.

Do you not see the inherit conflict between being "a good leader" and "driving away the talent on your team"? If your leader is toxic enough that everyone would rather quit than work with them, how are they supposed to function as a leader? There's going to be nobody left to lead!

Let's say they're not quite that toxic. Instead, they're merely driving down morale, merely making everyone want to think about anything but work, stressing them out. Will these people be bringing their A game? And doing their best work? And communicating effectively with leadership so the correct work gets done, instead of avoiding the jerk as much as possible?

Let's say they're not quite that toxic. Instead, they just forgot to bring doughnuts into work on your birthday. Are they actually a jerk?

> Naturally they find ways to take charge of a leaderless group

No such thing. There may be no official leader, or no clear singular leader, but if nothing else people will always lead themselves. Anyone displacing that leadership must provide more value than what exists for their leadership to be a net positive. That may be a fairly low bar at times, but sufficiently toxic individuals won't clear it - as they'll be removing value instead.

> The smart guy you think would make a better leader, generally doesn't want to be leader and will let the jerk take charge; that actually disqualifies them as good leaders because a good leader wouldn't do that.

Well, I'd agree it isn't good leadership. I've seen people learn from this mistake.

[hodwik]

>"If your leader is toxic enough that everyone would rather quit than work with them, how are they supposed to function as a leader?"

No one said toxic. They said jerk.

I quite like working with a bunch of opinionated assholes that are willing to argue to the bottom of something, and have no personal investment in me liking them.

The great thing about jerks is that they don't take it personally. When you see the jerk the next day, you're still at square one. You will always be at square one.

Not friends, not enemies, just coworkers doing your job -- willing to step on each others toes to get things done the right way.

I've worked at places where everyone is nice. It's hell. "Nice" people are bad: morally, ethically, and for the bottom line.

[MaulingMonkey]

> No one said toxic. They said jerk.

Being a jerk is toxic. Being an asshole is toxic. If they're not toxic, why are you calling them these things?

> I quite like working with a bunch of opinionated assholes that are willing to argue to the bottom of something, and have no personal investment in me liking them.

I like working with opinionated people that are willing to argue to the bottom of something. So much so that I ended up following the most argumentative person from my previous job to my current one.

None of that required them to be an asshole. We have a boardgames night every couple of weeks now.

> The great thing about jerks is that they don't take it personally.

Jerks tend to make it personal. That's one of the main reasons they tend to be jerks!

> Not friends, not enemies, just coworkers doing your job

I'm entirely fine with professional relationships. Professional doesn't imply jerk.

> willing to step on each others toes to get things done the right way.

Sure. But a professional can do this without finding their cleats and stomping as hard as they can.

> I've worked at places where everyone is nice. It's hell. "Nice" people are bad: morally, ethically, and for the bottom line.

Your inconsistent air quotes betray the problem here, I think.

People who are bad morally and ethically are not nice people. They are jerks. They are assholes. That some of them are grinfucking everyone to appear nice doesn't make them nice.

And, conversely, the fact that some people aren't grinfucking you doesn't make them jerks. That they're willing to debate something honestly with you doesn't make them an asshole. That they're trying to do things right - and save your team from future stress, crunch, or whatever other consequences would come from doing things wrong - sounds like they're trying to do everyone a favor. If anything, they sound nice.

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EDIT: Ultimately, I wonder how much of this thread is you saying...

Rock star "jerks"

And me hearing...

"Rock star" jerks