[AlexEatsKittens]

>Possible, but if you want us to the ignore the hugely differing economic incentives for men and women wrt pregnancy then the discussion isn't going to go anywhere.

What possible incentive is there for a man to impregnate a woman, especially without her desire? I don't think many guys are out there begging to pay child support.

[scott_s]

There is no incentive for man to impregnate a woman. That question, however, takes pregnancy as the given outcome. A man does have incentive to have sex: he likes it. anigbrowl's point was simple: by most measures, pregnancy is more "expensive" for women than for men, so women have higher incentives to not take the risk.

[JupiterMoon]

Sorry how is paying 18 years of child support for a child you could easily have no rights to even see not really very expensive?

[scott_s]

It is. But it's still not as "expensive" as pregnancy for a woman. I use scare quotes because I don't just mean monetary costs, but all kinds of costs.

[JupiterMoon]

You're still missing the benefit side of the cost/value equation. It might not seem like this to you but having a child is a major value to many people.

A woman has multiple options to prevent unwanted children (including two after the fact options). She therefore has full control of the child/no-child outcome based upon cost/value for her personal situation. A man has two options to prevent childbirth: a permanent vasectomy or using a condom (these fail and they fail too often in real world settings). A man has limited (or in the case of a condom mishap potentially no) control and potentially if the woman decides it should be so no value whatsoever.

[scott_s]

I completely understand the upside. I am, however, assuming a situation where both parties do not want to have a child, right then. The original scenario was, implicitly, casual sex. (Original scenario: "her: do you have protection? him: um, sure. I'm taking that, uh, that pill thing.") We can be more charitable and assume that scenario could play out a few months into dating. In such situations, not wanting a pregnancy is generally taken as a given. The entire discussion - birth control - even assumes that pregnancy, at the moment, is not wanted. So I'm confused why you're bring up the value of having children (which I do not deny) in a discussion about the incentives for men and women in avoiding unwanted pregnancy.

Perhaps your confusion is that I stated "There is no incentive for man to impregnate a woman", and you interpreted that as a universal statement. It was not. It was a direct response to the question for a man's motives in the given scenario, which assumes unwanted pregnancy.

[JupiterMoon]

I'm not sure we disagree that much. However...

The point I'm trying to make it that the cost is not the only part of the equation and that we must also account for reward and control.

Cost/reward When the female birth control pill became available the cost/value was weighted very heavily against the woman and female control was much more essential. However today the cost/value is more evenly weighted. Back then a man could deny everything and move on leaving the woman with the baby and a ruined life. Now the man can't deny everything and as a minimum will be committed to child maintenance but he may still be denied access to the child. So the situation now is: woman high cost coupled with high reward; man moderate cost and potential reward controlled by the woman.

Control Let's assume that both parties decide for themselves based on their own cost/reward situation. Let's assume that they don't always inform the other of the their decision honestly. Neither is perfect judge of character.

Current situation Scenario 1: Man wants child. Woman does not. Woman controls outcome. No child. Scenario 2: Man doesn't want child. Woman does. Woman controls outcome. Child. Scenario 3: Both want child. Child. Scenario 4: Neither want child. No child.

Situation with male birth control Scenario 1: Man wants child. Woman does not. Woman controls outcome. No child. Scenario 2: Man doesn't want child. Woman does. Man controls outcome. No child. Scenario 3: Both want child. Child. Scenario 4: Neither want child. No child.

P.S. Personally I think that the pill was one of the greatest drivers of women starting to have rights on a par with men (I'm not saying that 2015s western world is perfect gender equality wise but it is a lot better than the 1950s western world was).

P.P.S. I just think that men should if possible have the option to control their reproductive function and that it does not matter whether woman trusts the man -- the man's control does not affect the woman's control (except in the scenario that the woman is a deceptive actor - NB that the inverse situation where the man is a deceptive actor is already under the woman's control).

[JoeAltmaier]

Add in, that sex makes people act irrationally. Options like condoms can be even less effective if they're not used.

[ambicapter]

Oh right, because women don't enjoy sex.

[anigbrowl]

Don't be so stupid. Men and women both enjoy sex but pregnancy involves a lot of extra physical work for the woman because it takes ~9 months to grow another human being (or more than 1) that's 5-10% of the woman's own body weight, not to mention that human infants are completely helpless for a long time after birth, in contrast to many other animals.

This is just a fact of biology before you look at any of the social contextual factors.

[scott_s]

I did not mean to imply anything of the sort. However, Alex spoke specifically to what the incentives for men are, so I explained the incentives I think men have. For women, I only mentioned the risks. I think a charitable reading of what I said would assume that I think women also have positive incentives.

[gknoy]

The incentive is the net present value of having sex Right Now, versus the cost of money, being unable to sleep for the next 18 years, and financial obligations. Given how often people (in general) don't use a condom, even when they're available, I get the impression that most guys are not thinking very hard about the future.

[JupiterMoon]

Plus the benefit of raising your child and watching him/her grow up.