[qwerta]

Why Russians should not believe it?

- Ukraine army shoot down civil airliner with 90 people on board just a few years ago [1]

- It was regular war zone with dozens other planes shoot down [2].

- It happened on Ukraine territory, most likely by Ukraine citizens.

- Buk 9M38 is not Russian missile, but Soviet (that includes Ukraine).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_aircraft_los...

[Avalaxy]

> Ukraine army shoot down civil airliner with 90 people on board just a few years ago

What does that have to do with this incident?

> It was regular war zone with dozens other planes shoot down

This contradicts your point. The rebels didn't have planes, so all planes that were shot down were Ukrainian planes that were shot down by the rebels.

> It happened on Ukraine territory, most likely by Ukraine citizens.

What proof do you have for that?

[ayepif]

Not to detract from you valid points (since I think these are important questions to ask) but the rebels do have a small airforce.

Source: http://www.ibtimes.com/pro-russian-rebels-have-air-force-mad...

"Kiev has claimed that Ukrainian troops have destroyed one separatist L-39 military trainer aircraft, two An-2 agricultural aircraft, one Yak-52 trainer airplane and four Mi-24 attack helicopters -- the latter being the most dangerous aircraft in the list, and the only ones built expressly for an armed role."

Wikipedia also has a list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Unite...

[igor_a]

"It was regular war zone with dozens other planes shoot down"

with dozens of Ukrainian planes shoot down. (who shot them? where did they got weapons for that? where did they got skills for that?)

"Ukraine army shoot down civil airliner with 90 people on board just a few years ago" How many planes (korean planes to be specific) were shot down by USSR (that includes Russia)

[3princip]

How many planes were shot down by the US (Iranian planes to be specific)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[smcl]

This a lovely example of the irritating "whataboutism" that clouds these sorts of discussions and bring nothing to the table.

Iranian Air Flight 655 has nothing to do with the article or this discussion.

[datalist]

To be fair igor_a started dragging unrelated what-if scenarions about Russia into the discussion.

[smcl]

You're right - both are unrelated, I should've mentioned the pair of them

[igor_a]

Yep they shot it and admitted it. It's a big difference

[igor_a]

I meant difference not about the fact that somebody shot the plane, but the difference in reaction.

Why Russia blocked tribunal? What about all that clowning around investigation, throwing a new weird version about accident (what about the version that goes about frozen bodies or version about shooting down the plane by Ukrainian Su-25 that can't reach that altitude? All of this went through Russian state TV channels and other state people (Investigation Committee etc.)

[oleks]

- Just because that they can, doesn't mean that they would.

- The list lists Ukrainian aircraft lost during the conflict, not the separatist/Russian aircraft.

- Yes, separatist-held territory is Ukraine territory, and separatists are (at times) Ukrainian citizens, although Ukraine currently cannot guarantee the safety of its, or other citizens in the separatist-held territory.

- As to the last point, who knows. Who produced what, and sold where in the post-Soviet world is a lot harder to debunk than the publicly exposed news.

Russia never took on, and still does not take on its moral obligation to proactively control its border with the conflict zone. Similarly, Ukraine didn't take appropriate action to ban flights over the conflict zone. Ukraine did take action - when will Russia? Both are "guilty" in the case of MH17, due to their inaction.

"There are risks and costs to action. But they are far less than the long range risks of comfortable inaction." - John F. Kennedy.