[crayg33k]

The comments in this discussion that talk about how foreign nationals look at a PhD as a short-cut to getting permanent residency infuriates me.

I have a CS PhD from a reputable mid-west school. I am also not a US citizen. When a person is considering investing 5-7 years of his/her life into a PhD program, I am quite certain the US immigration policy is not a motivating factor by any measure. You can apply for permanent residency under the EB-2 quota even with a Masters. The EB-1 quota is for "outstanding researchers" with truly exceptional skills, and who have made significant impact in their field of research. All the non-American PhD students I have met in my life (and I have met a LOT of them) have a real drive to innovate and be someone in their field of research. Sure, higher salaries (if they decide to enter the industry, as opposed to academia) are a strong motivation to some of them, but I doubt if permanent residency is.

[geebee]

I agree that it's possible to overstate the influence of immigration policy but I really don't agree that it is "not a motivating factor by any measure". When I was in grad school at Berkeley (didn't finish, dropped out with an MS), many international students were quite open about the benefits of a grad degree in gaining US residency, and expressed irritation that other fields weren't as open as STEM.

These are just our anecdotes, but there is some data to support this.

Take a look at this study from the RAND institute (historically a very pro-immigrant think tank) that compares STEM PhD programs to other options available to highly educated people with choice and concludes that the decision to avoid STEM graduate programs (PhD in particular) is a rational response to market conditions relative to the professions.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html

A more general audience report on this research:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/2009-07-08-scien...

Here's the thing - those "professions" are much more closed off to international students than STEM graduate programs. This absolutely influences choice!

It's pretty clear that some fields and paths to graduate study in the US are far more open to non-citizens than others, and that visa programs targeting STEM fields do provide an extra incentive for non-citizens to go into STEM graduate programs rather than other study paths. This doesn't make it the only reason, or the main motivation, but I'd say it is a motivating factor to go to grad school.

I tend to agree with you that once the MS is achieved, the motivation would be lower, but it still influences the field of study.

[shas3]

> It's pretty clear that some fields and paths to graduate study in the US are far more open to non-citizens than others, and that visa programs targeting STEM fields do provide an extra incentive for non-citizens to go into STEM graduate programs rather than other study paths. This doesn't make it the only reason, or the main motivation, but I'd say it is a motivating factor to go to grad school.

What? This is the weirdest reason I've seen about why foreigners do STEM. Are you suggesting that it is because it is easier for them to get visas in STEM?!?

You are clearly ignorant of the gaping difference between STEM and non-STEM education in India and China. There are too many good STEM schools and too few non-STEM programs in these two countries for there to be any other reason for people doing STEM in US grad schools.

I continue to be surprised by the casual anti-immigrant bigotry on HN. Stating that they choose STEM because it is easier to get visas sure is an unfair stereotyping and second guessing of someone's motives based on their ethnicity.

[lucozade]

You appear to be assuming either all non-US grad students are from China and India or that geebee was only writing about them. I see no reason to believe either is true.

I read geebee's comment to mean that it is possible that citizenship may be a factor. I happens to know someone, from Europe, who attended grad school in the US who also wanted to get his green card.

On that basis is it not conceivable that geebee may have a point?

[shas3]

India, China, and South Korea (all countries with heavy STEM emphasis) together make up close to half of all foreign students in the US [1]. At just the graduate level, India and China contribute ~70% of all science and engineering students [2]. It would be disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

[1] http://www.iie.org/Services/Project-Atlas/United-States/Inte... [2] http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind12/pdf/c02.pdf

[zenbowman]

That is precisely why a lot of us pursue STEM degrees - it is easier to immigrate with a STEM degree, and the job market is favorable.

How is that an anti-immigrant statement?

If anything, it indicates that many immigrants are deeply pragmatic, which is a compliment.

[shas3]

> That is precisely why a lot of us pursue STEM degrees - it is easier to immigrate with a STEM degree, and the job market is favorable.

That's a needless generalization. Can you back it up with data from surveys? It is an offensive suggestion that immigration is an end in itself. People doing PhD just to immigrate? You mean to say you would invest several years into education and forgo thousands of dollars of income and sacrifice certainty just to immigrate to the US? The end for most people doing a PhD is professional excellence, unless proven otherwise with data, immigration is secondary. The reason people choose the US for PhD is either because programs in their own countries are hypercompetitive to get into (not having enough quality PhD programs) and/or because the US is the world leader in research in almost every field in STEM.

[zenbowman]

For someone coming from India, you aren't necessarily forgoing thousands of dollars of income. My PhD years were quite relaxed, you can live frugally, you get a stipend, you work on interesting projects, and at the end of the day you have an option to live in a country with far more opportunity than the one you came from.

[bluishgreen]

Fellow transplant here, if anything the US immigration system actively discourages people with options (smart folks who can focus and work hard for 5-7 years) from coming to the US. What brings/keeps them here is the network effect. This is sad, because the immigration system is immune to any feedback because of this fact. Namely their actions don't have any consequences. The system is a parasite, it has so far managed to thrive without killing its host. Either that continues indefinitely, or I really hope another center of knowledge puts pressure or better yet totally kills the US immigration parasite.

[charrisku]

I can't speak for CS, but I got a PhD in applied math at a respectable school in Virginia and about 90% of our grad students were not US citizens. To my knowledge, every one of them left on completion of their degrees and I can't remember a single one who actually expressed an interest in staying. I think people who see STEM grad students as some sort of huddled masses yearning for US residency are pretty out of touch with reality. This isn't 1960 anymore.

[goodcjw2]

Agreed. Getting a PhD is never a short-cut to anything

[sels]

"PhD as a short-cut to getting permanent residency infuriates me" You should not be. There are managers with 1 year work experience outside US and they come to US in L1 Visa and apply for Greencard in EB1 - Multinational Manager category and gets their Greencard in less than a year. May be this should infuriate everybody. By doing so these people use up the Greencard visas significantly. So EB2 guys from India who applied for Greencard in 2005 are getting their greencard now.

[dxbydt]

> The EB-1 quota is for outstanding researchers with truly exceptional skills, and who have made significant impact in their field of research

Its not. (Disclaimer:I have an EB-1)

[raincom]

These days, even project managers (PMP) are getting EB1 green cards, if they know how to play the game right. I know a few who got through tthat route.

[werber]

I totally agree. There are way faster ways. I really think that the American higher-higher education system values people doing amazing things.

[supercanuck]

I wonder how a researcher who readily admitted to trying to get permanent residency would be perceived by his peers.

[praneshp]

Ideally, it shouldn't matter? They should be judged on what papers they write/innovations they make.