[geebee]

I agree that it's possible to overstate the influence of immigration policy but I really don't agree that it is "not a motivating factor by any measure". When I was in grad school at Berkeley (didn't finish, dropped out with an MS), many international students were quite open about the benefits of a grad degree in gaining US residency, and expressed irritation that other fields weren't as open as STEM.

These are just our anecdotes, but there is some data to support this.

Take a look at this study from the RAND institute (historically a very pro-immigrant think tank) that compares STEM PhD programs to other options available to highly educated people with choice and concludes that the decision to avoid STEM graduate programs (PhD in particular) is a rational response to market conditions relative to the professions.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html

A more general audience report on this research:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/2009-07-08-scien...

Here's the thing - those "professions" are much more closed off to international students than STEM graduate programs. This absolutely influences choice!

It's pretty clear that some fields and paths to graduate study in the US are far more open to non-citizens than others, and that visa programs targeting STEM fields do provide an extra incentive for non-citizens to go into STEM graduate programs rather than other study paths. This doesn't make it the only reason, or the main motivation, but I'd say it is a motivating factor to go to grad school.

I tend to agree with you that once the MS is achieved, the motivation would be lower, but it still influences the field of study.

[shas3]

> It's pretty clear that some fields and paths to graduate study in the US are far more open to non-citizens than others, and that visa programs targeting STEM fields do provide an extra incentive for non-citizens to go into STEM graduate programs rather than other study paths. This doesn't make it the only reason, or the main motivation, but I'd say it is a motivating factor to go to grad school.

What? This is the weirdest reason I've seen about why foreigners do STEM. Are you suggesting that it is because it is easier for them to get visas in STEM?!?

You are clearly ignorant of the gaping difference between STEM and non-STEM education in India and China. There are too many good STEM schools and too few non-STEM programs in these two countries for there to be any other reason for people doing STEM in US grad schools.

I continue to be surprised by the casual anti-immigrant bigotry on HN. Stating that they choose STEM because it is easier to get visas sure is an unfair stereotyping and second guessing of someone's motives based on their ethnicity.

[lucozade]

You appear to be assuming either all non-US grad students are from China and India or that geebee was only writing about them. I see no reason to believe either is true.

I read geebee's comment to mean that it is possible that citizenship may be a factor. I happens to know someone, from Europe, who attended grad school in the US who also wanted to get his green card.

On that basis is it not conceivable that geebee may have a point?

[shas3]

India, China, and South Korea (all countries with heavy STEM emphasis) together make up close to half of all foreign students in the US [1]. At just the graduate level, India and China contribute ~70% of all science and engineering students [2]. It would be disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

[1] http://www.iie.org/Services/Project-Atlas/United-States/Inte... [2] http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind12/pdf/c02.pdf

[zenbowman]

That is precisely why a lot of us pursue STEM degrees - it is easier to immigrate with a STEM degree, and the job market is favorable.

How is that an anti-immigrant statement?

If anything, it indicates that many immigrants are deeply pragmatic, which is a compliment.

[shas3]

> That is precisely why a lot of us pursue STEM degrees - it is easier to immigrate with a STEM degree, and the job market is favorable.

That's a needless generalization. Can you back it up with data from surveys? It is an offensive suggestion that immigration is an end in itself. People doing PhD just to immigrate? You mean to say you would invest several years into education and forgo thousands of dollars of income and sacrifice certainty just to immigrate to the US? The end for most people doing a PhD is professional excellence, unless proven otherwise with data, immigration is secondary. The reason people choose the US for PhD is either because programs in their own countries are hypercompetitive to get into (not having enough quality PhD programs) and/or because the US is the world leader in research in almost every field in STEM.

[zenbowman]

For someone coming from India, you aren't necessarily forgoing thousands of dollars of income. My PhD years were quite relaxed, you can live frugally, you get a stipend, you work on interesting projects, and at the end of the day you have an option to live in a country with far more opportunity than the one you came from.