[um_ya]

Bernie Sanders has promised everything to everybody. I would say he has the least credibility than any other candidate (and that's saying a lot considering how shitty the lineup is), because at least the other candidates don't make such ridiculous promises like he does... Seriously, how are you going to give people free healthcare, free education, free [insert entitlement program]. His plan of action, "tax the rich more". What a joke.

[toomuchtodo]

I know, right? Why isn't he promising to defund planned parenthood, build a wall on the Mexican border, and defund the government for ideological reasons! /s

It's funny really. I've never been political until Bernie Sanders has come along, and I believe all of his policies are practical to implement (yes, universal healthcare and free education is easy, stop spending as much on the military as the next top 10 countries combined). I'm volunteering for his campaign, helping with Coders For Sanders, and am maxing out my campaign contributions.

Perhaps its because I've always leaned a bit to the left, and have reached the end of my rope with conservative crazies.

[nemothekid]

>(yes, universal healthcare and free education is easy, stop spending as much on the military as the next top 10 countries combined)

I think this statement further reinforces the GP's point. Simply "stop funding the military" isn't "easy" - and I doubt it is something that can be done over a 4 year term. Most of the military's budget are salaries, not just soldiers but likely millions of factory workers who produce a wide range of products for the military. While the question of "are the products they produce useful" is grey, the fact is you'd have to start by laying off millions of Americans and likely damaging the many smaller towns that have come to depend that income source. While its simple to just state "defund the military" the truth is much more complex and likely an even greater political minefield. If he does win the election, if he were to pull off that move, I doubt he would have the political strength to keep a trajectory going for a second election.

As much as I believe that free education should be a thing, I believe that is also a minefield. How will schools be funded? Does the government pay the inflated tuitions, or do we solve the student loan problem first? Will we be forced to massively scale back the amount of people who attend 4-year schools (currently around 70% in the US vs. 30% in Germany)?

And then to seemingly do this by "just taxing the rich"? It seems that people forget that the President just doesn't wake up one day and decide what to tax people at - it's in part decided by congress (as well as many of the other issues) - and it just seems unlikely that he'll make good on everything he is promising.

Personally, I believe Bernie to be a sound candidate, but um_ya has a point.

[toomuchtodo]

> While the question of "are the products they produce useful" is grey, the fact is you'd have to start by laying off millions of Americans and likely damaging the many small towns that have come to depend that income source.

So we get to the crux that a large portion of the US military is a jobs and rural support program. Perhaps we'll start with the albatross that is the Joint Strike Fighter, estimated at costing over a $1 trillion dollars during its lifecycle.

> While its simple to just state "defund the military" the truth is much more complex and likely an even greater political minefield.

The truth isn't complex, but it is a political quagmire. You need someone with a spine to get the work done.

> As much as I believe that free education should be a thing, I believe that is also a minefield. How will schools be funded? Does the government pay the inflated tuitions, or do we solve the student loan problem first? Will we forced to massively scale back the amount of people who attend 4-year schools (currently around 70% in the US vs. 30% in Germany)?

The cost of education has skyrocketed because the US government backs loans you can't default on, therefore schools raise their rates (which is what happens when demand is inelastic, because you've been told all your life you can't get a well-paying job without a degree, and employers can require a degree without financial cost to them). You apply the same premise Medicare does: If your students don't learn, you don't get paid. We then take a page from the Affordable Care Act and require at least 85-90% of tuition funds to go to actual teaching, and not administration, leisure activities/clubs, and other non-core expenses.

> And then to seemingly do this by "just taxing the rich"? It seems that people forget that the President just doesn't wake up one day and decide what to tax people at - it's in part decided by congress (as well as many of the other issues) - and it just seems unlikely that he'll make good on everything he is promising.

Yes. I want a democratic candidate who is willing to call out Congress. Sanders is the only candidate with the character to do this.

> Personally, I believe Bernie to be a sound candidate, but um_ya has a point.

Of course he's a sound candidate. And no, um_ya has no point.

[nemothekid]

>You need someone with a spine to get the work done.

You are right, the issues are mostly political and I'd be ecstatic to see it get done. However, given that after Obama's 8 year legacy we got a massively watered down public healthcare plan - I'd like to see a plan other than "we are going to get free education, everyone else be damned". To me its no different than the GOPs "We are going to make abortions illegal, or we will shut down the government." I just don't see how its "easy" to defund the MI complex in 4 years.

>You apply the same premise Medicare does: If your students don't learn, you don't get paid.

I pulled this out specifically because it made crawl in my seat. We have tried this already, its called No Child Left Behind, and many don't consider it a success. Turns out quantifying "do your students learn" is incredibly difficult to measure, especially at the federal level.

I'm well aware of why tuitions are so high - but another point that isn't addressed is that countries with free education typically have lower college entrance rates (admittedly it might be cultural, trade schools aren't attractive in America). Is it simply cheaper for Germany to send everyone to school? Are American school more expensive because they tend to be more cutting edge? Is that something we want to give up? Maybe at this point in the voting season, all we are getting is soundbites, but thats something I'd like to hear.

In any case, my POV is to enact any of these issues today, will end up requiring many compromises (as did happen to ACA) with state governments, corporations, and citizens. I'd like to what he imagines these compromises to be.

[toomuchtodo]

I don't disagree that it's hard. I'm saying it's far and beyond what everyone else is offering, which is "Tax cuts for the rich, screw the middle class, all our problems are because of immigrants and the LGBT community, and because Millennials aren't bootstrappy."

[nemothekid]

No doubt, even the opposition within his party isn't at his level.

[mgkimsal]

> the fact is you'd have to start by laying off millions of Americans and likely damaging the many smaller towns that have come to depend that income source

IF military downsizing is done mostly as a way to fund other areas - education and health, for example - there would be corresponding large increases in jobs/employment/industry around those areas, and I suspect it may spread the money around the country geographically a in a bit more balanced fashion.

Cut govt backing of new student loans, guarantee immediate payment of lesser tuition amounts for students, and the market will sort itself out there. If people can primarily just afford community colleges, the larger schools will adjust themselves to whatever the market will bear.

[jMyles]

> the fact is you'd have to start by laying off millions of Americans and likely damaging the many smaller towns that have come to depend that income source.

They can cry me a river. Obviously it was to their (and everyone's) disadvantage for them to become economically depending on manufacturing death. They have nobody but themselves to blame.

My home town is one of these, and it's already pretty depressed. We'll all be happier after the pivot to an economy based on building things that aren't destructive and idiotic.

Other than this, I agree with every point you've made.

[PhasmaFelis]

> They can cry me a river. Obviously it was to their (and everyone's) disadvantage for them to become economically depending on manufacturing death. They have nobody but themselves to blame.

That's kinda bullshit. If you want to lay blame, lay it on your choice of national government/local government/the military-industrial complex for failing to provide better options/opportunities, but don't blame the little guy who took the only readily-available job so he could feed his family.

[jMyles]

If he chooses to 'feed his family' by building bombs to drop on a poor family on the other side of the world, I have absolutely no sympathy for him.

And I don't see any point in passing the buck to whatever government claims authority over his landmass. Yes, of course I wish that the government didn't corrupt the economy by making war seem like a viable way to "feed the family," but it's obviously not.

Nobody forced your hypothetical guy to take that job - and even if he's starving, he has no right to exact violence on strangers.

[politician]

> Nobody forced your hypothetical guy to take that job

Fine. I'll call you out. Hunger did. Do you have no compassion?

His children are starving. Now what?

[PhasmaFelis]

If the guy who packs MREs or sews uniforms so his family won't starve is complicit in violence, then you are just as complicit for paying your taxes so you don't go to prison.

[heartbreak]

I'm amazed at how _hatefully_ non-violent some people can be.

[justinsingh]

Is your home town ready for those who would have to seek new employment? If so, what type of jobs would be available to them? If not, in what (as specific as possible) ways do you imagine your home town to adapt to the change of sudden unemployment so that these people can have adequate jobs to still support their families?

[zo1]

>"and it just seems unlikely that he'll make good on everything he is promising."

This is unfortunately a big failing of democracy and the political landscape, in my opinion. You have individuals that are voted into political positions under certain "promises", and then have access to a myriad of excuses that they claim prevented them from implementing said promises. Of course, I understand that sometimes there really are stumbling blocks and active measures preventing a plan from being implemented. But can we not draw a line somewhere? And hold political figures accountable for at least trying to implement their promises. Or at least require them to present sound reasons or studies for actually wanting to enact something as law. E.g. "Study on effects of UBI on the well-being of single-parent households"

Additionally, I'm a tad confused about this concept of Democracy (warning, not really confused, just arguing): If the president is elected in a presidential election and represents the majority of the people, why then do we elect a separate set (branch, as they call it), of individuals at a more granular level that could very well "fight" the already-elected president? I'm referring to the congress/senators there. Could the entire problem not be solved by removing the entire "checks-and-balances" concept, and simply hold presidents accountable for their actions (or lack thereof when it comes to promises)? And by accountable, I mean real consequences: prison/large-fines.

Following from that, we don't all believe that we could potentially get a "crazy" or "rogue" president that abuses his power after election? E.g. creating some sort of police-state, starting wars that the public doesn't want or rewriting constitutional-law? Such that we require some sort of "checks-and-balances" entity/branch to keep him/her from doing so.

Anywho, just some random rants from someone that thinks too-logically about politics, because my ideology requires me to.

[AnimalMuppet]

> Additionally, I'm a tad confused about this concept of Democracy (warning, not really confused, just arguing): If the president is elected in a presidential election and represents the majority of the people, why then do we elect a separate set (branch, as they call it), of individuals at a more granular level that could very well "fight" the already-elected president?

You're confused. That's not a bug, it's a feature. The whole political philosophy of the US is that no one person gets power that somebody else can't block.

> Could the entire problem not be solved by removing the entire "checks-and-balances" concept, and simply hold presidents accountable for their actions (or lack thereof when it comes to promises)?

The thing you see as a problem could be solved that way, yes. But imagine that the next president is Trump rather than Sanders. Still think it's a good idea?

The public makes bad decisions at the ballot box sometimes. No matter which way you lean politically, you're sure to be able to find examples in the last 20 years. Having Congress able to block some of their most stupid ideas is genius, rather than a flaw.

[afarrell]

I'm afraid that this risks sounding terribly terribly condescending and I don't want it to, but I truly intend the following to be helpful...

> that thinks too-logically about politics

There is a reason Justice Oliver Wendell Homes said "The life of the law has not been logic; it has been experience." Humans are complex and if you try to define a set of axioms (or special forms) and build up and understanding from that, it is all too easy to follow your line of thought past massively lethal flaws. In your case, there are very good reasons why we don't give the president all of the powers that are currently allocated to congress. It is very very tempting to lay out specific ones for you. Other commenters will surely do that. However, I think that would not help you learn a better way to approach thinking about human power structures and the ways that they can fail. You should start by reading (or listening to audiobooks of) more history. Read broadly, enough that you start to experience the phenomenon described here: http://squid314.livejournal.com/350090.html

If you want some easy-to-digest things to start with, this list of resources videos is pretty good, but has the flaw that it is all from one source: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yocja_N5s1I&list=PLBDA2E52FB... - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E9WU9TGrec&index=1&list=PL8... - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyzi9GNZFMU&index=1&list=PL8...

For understanding the law, these are a good start: - http://lawcomic.net/guide/?page_id=5 - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/

As an exercise, reading both of these and weighing them is a good one. - http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/libertarianism.html - http://raikoth.net/libertarian.html - http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/03/18/book-review-the-machine...

But I really can't actually drop a list of sources on you and give you what you need to have the instinct of thinking "What are the ways that this simplified view of things could go terribly terribly wrong." I'm possibly just giving you my biases. I really do hope you go out and read more stories of where things about how humans work, both in real life and in fiction.

This applies to many human institutions beyond the federal government. https://xkcd.com/592/

[baobabaobab]

"I think this statement further reinforces the GP's point. Simply "stop funding the military" isn't "easy""

No one serious is seriously saying that the military shouldn't be funded. What people are saying is that maybe if the DOD actually kept track of where all it's money went, and made national defense a priority over enriching contractors, it could get by with a reduced budget.

[jMyles]

> No one serious is seriously saying that the military shouldn't be funded.

Sure they are - at least some elements of it. And they have been for 200 years.

The constitutional specifically prohibits a standing army; one of the biggest jokes in the contemporary political condition is that the USA doesn't have one.

I want the military defunded in its entirety, save the divisions of navy which protect coastal states from attack.

[twoodfin]

The constitutional specifically prohibits a standing army

No, it doesn't:

The Congress shall have Power ... To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

As long as Congress keeps appropriating money for it, we can have a standing army.

[jMyles]

That's not a "standing" army - that's the whole point. The debate raged back and forth at the CC on this point with everyone ultimately agreeing that this two-year limitation was something short of a "standing" army.

[afarrell]

I think that a conventionally-dominant global superpower suddenly becoming drastically less powerful would make for a fascinating novel or TV series. The conflicts that arise as nations rush in to fill the power vacuum and adjust to a dramatically different security situation would, in the hands of a skilled writer/director be far more interesting than Game of Thrones.

[politician]

> I want the military defunded in its entirety, save the divisions of navy which protect coastal states from attack.

Do you consider space-based threats in the realm of the Navy?

[jMyles]

I guess so, right?

[vvanders]

+1 you'll see that he regularly references other countries that have already done this.

I'm esp a fan of Germany's education track, and having worked in crunch-heavy industries having something like a working time directive would be a Good Thing(tm).

[vasilipupkin]

other countries have done stuff that isn't quite what he proposes. They have very high taxes on the middle class, relatively low taxes on the rich ( via various loop holes and investment tax breaks ) and restrictions on who can go to free college. So, if you want to copy German or Swedish system, then be honest that it will require middle class taxation double of what it is now. Otherwise, Bernie's whole campaign is nothing more than a more civil version of Trump's "we'll be winning so much you'll be tired of winning" schtick

[eli_gottlieb]

>Perhaps its because I've always leaned a bit to the left, and have reached the end of my rope with conservative crazies.

It's also because Bernie is one of the first candidates in recent years to build his campaign entirely on a policy platform. If someone asks him a leading question to get him into personal bickering for the sake of a sound bite, he tells them to go away until they have a real question. All he wants to do is debate policy issues.

So anyone can go ahead and disagree with him, but his meta-level goal is a fucking necessity: make politics be about policy again.

[toomuchtodo]

Yes, incredibly true.

[yequalsx]

There are lots of examples of countries that provide their citizens with universal healthcare, near free higher education and a strong social welfare system. It's not a joke if there are many examples of this.

It could be considered a joke in that it's unlikely his opponents in Congress would vote for such programs and that they'll ridicule it as you have. However, that does not negate that it is feasible to have such things or even reasonable to expect them.

[rhino369]

It's certainly feasible, but not by the sorts of taxes he proposes.

European countries make up the difference in revenue by having much higher taxation on the middle class. The middle class in Europe doesn't get free healthcare and free education. They pay for it in higher taxation.

So unless the Bern wants a significant VAT tax and increased income taxes on middle income earners, his plans are crazy.

[refurb]

You raise a good point. People talk about taxing the rich more, but guess what? There aren't that many rich! In order to substantially raise gov't spending, the middle class will need to pay more.

This reminds me of a Canadian election back in the 1990s. The NDP (left wing) wanted to fund more programs by increasing the taxes on the "rich". So someone asked who the "rich" were.

A family of 4 making over $60,000.

At least they were honest!

[pandaman]

Just today I walked past a new BMW in the garage with a "Bernie" sticker on it. I am not sure it was in support of Sanders but even if it were not it's the perfect symbol of the engineers from the OP: people driving new BMWs supporting taxing "the rich" as if "the rich" are not them.

[politician]

You're engaging in a logical fallacy; have you considered that the people driving the new BMWs might consider themselves to be rich --or-- might nevertheless consider Bernie Sander's policy positions to be laudable?

[pandaman]

> You're engaging in a logical fallacy;

I don't see how.

>have you considered ...

Yes I have. If such people exist I doubt they make a statistically significant fraction among supporters of such policies. All Sanders supporters I know are both "rich" (i.e. can afford a new BMW or two) and do not believe that "the rich" to be taxed are them. These people are not really dumb so if they thought their own wealth needed redistribution they could figure easier ways to achieve that.

[apsec112]

Please don't start political flamewars on HN.

"Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[hugh4]

Does this whole article count? Does it say anything fundamentally new or is it just a Sanders puff piece (of the type that his followers are currently spamming to every darn social news site in existence) which just happens to have a vague programmingish flavour?

[AlexCoventry]

The amount of creativity which is going into Coders for Sanders is a pretty remarkable development.

[JesperRavn]

This thread is about how great it is that volunteers are coming together for a good cause. Let's keep politics out of it.

[notNow]

  how are you going to give people free healthcare, free education...

Like Germany, Canada, Sweden is doing or any other developed country with a reasonable social safety net and free market economy.

It is not mission impossible like you make it sound to be

[theworstshill]

this guy gets it. Whose gonna be paying for all this crap?

[toomuchtodo]

As an American, you're already paying for it. You're just not getting what you paid for.