[CamperBob2]

Those are very rare. When they appear, there's inevitably enough panic and publicity to attract my attention, at which point I can evaluate and install the update myself when/if appropriate.

Fool me once, there won't be a second time, and that means you get to pull something like "UPGRADE TO WINDOWS 10 NOW!!!11!!" on me exactly once. Auto-updates are now turned off on my Windows 7 box, and they will remain that way.

[JupiterMoon]

The problem with this is that you are starting to treat the OS creator as hostile. This is not a good situation to be in. Microsoft has the equivalent of root on all windows machines so it is difficult to treat them as hostile. They could roll out an upgrade tomorrow that incorporated a critical kernel security update together with non-turnable off automatic updates and you would have to accept the patch or remain vulnerable. There are some that would argue that Windows 10 home editions are exactly this...

Basically in the medium to long term if you regard your OS creator as a potential threat you have very little option but to change OS...

[CamperBob2]

Correct.

This is why fucking with Windows Update should have been the very last thing anyone at Microsoft would ever have wanted to do... or the very last thing they ever did do just before Security escorted them out to the parking lot.

[Silhouette]

The problem with this is that you are starting to treat the OS creator as hostile. This is not a good situation to be in.

No it isn't, but when they demonstrably are hostile to a degree, as with Microsoft's recent behaviour, that treatment is justified all the same.

It's important to separate updates that fix defects in the original product (security patches, bug fixes) from other updates that simply change the behaviour. The reason it's important is that from a legal point of view, there are often implied expectations of fitness for purpose and adequate quality when you buy something.

Software companies have for some time enjoyed a cosy position. For one thing, those kinds of rules have often not been enforced rigorously, partly because as long as the software companies were putting out bug fixes before large scale damage was done it has been pragmatic to let them carry on. Also, the law has often lagged the technology, with various loopholes meaning the same consumer protections that apply to physical products haven't always applied to digital ones and extra rights in digital products have been very rare.

However, the laws in a lot of places have been starting to catch up, just as modern trends in software have been pushing towards effectively forced updates. It would be a brave software company that rocked the boat by limiting access to security patches or other essential bug fixes in their push to get everyone upgrading all the time, though. The consequences if they push too far and the consumer protection authorities and/or business lawyers start to challenge them seriously could be extremely expensive.

Basically in the medium to long term if you regard your OS creator as a potential threat you have very little option but to change OS.

Unfortunate, but true. For now, I am still "changing" to Windows 7 for new machines on the Microsoft side. Personally, I'm betting that the inevitable backlash against ever-changing, never-owned, user-hostile, sub-standard digital products is going to pick up enough momentum over the next few years that either Microsoft or whoever actually kills their business will offer a better alternative before 2020 when Win7 support is scheduled to end.

[JupiterMoon]

> The reason it's important is that from a legal point of view, there are often implied expectations of fitness for purpose and adequate quality when you buy something.

I thought that software licenses and EULAs were designed to remove liability?

> Unfortunate, but true. For now, I am still "changing" to Windows 7 for new machines on the Microsoft side. Personally, I'm betting that the inevitable backlash against ever-changing, never-owned, user-hostile, sub-standard digital products is going to pick up enough momentum over the next few years that either Microsoft or whoever actually kills their business will offer a better alternative before 2020 when Win7 support is scheduled to end.

I could see the year of the Linux desktop coming eventually. But not as originally envisioned. I would not be surprised by a world where only specialists (developers, graphic designers etc) have desktops and the actual majority of computers in use are locked down iOS or Android kiosk type devices.

[Silhouette]

I thought that software licenses and EULAs were designed to remove liability?

No doubt they try, but the fact is, those kinds of documents can't override the law. In some places, the law imposes minimum standards on what is acceptable in a consumer (or even business) transaction, and software companies have tried to play the "But the EULA says..." card, and if it's actually tested in court they have sometimes lost. They often rely on people not being aware of their rights and/or not having the time or money or willpower to contest the issue.

Even that barrier may not help the software companies in the long run. Coincidentally, just today the UK introduced a sort of lightweight version of US class action lawsuits as part of a major revision of consumer protection law, as well as various other explicit consumer rights relating to digital rather than physical content.

I would not be surprised by a world where only specialists (developers, graphic designers etc) have desktops and the actual majority of computers in use are locked down iOS or Android kiosk type devices.

I'm afraid that is one all too realistic possibility. But there are reasons for hope as well.

For one thing, tablets and the like are convenient for small-scale content consumption and minor interactions, but they're awful for serious content creation or more complicated interactions. I don't think general purpose computers are going anywhere any time soon.

Perhaps more significantly, there is now a push in quite a few places to promote computer literacy and basic programming skills even at school age, and to spread the word that you can still tinker and make cool stuff, perhaps using devices like the Raspberry Pi and Arduino. We also have Linux and the FOSS community following a similar philosophy on the software side, of course, and actually one of the nicer results of so many kids having smartphones these days is that writing simple apps to run on them is now an attractive introduction to programming for kids who enjoy playing with technology. Ultimately, there is a strong human instinct to create and many people enjoy making stuff that is fun and interesting, and fortunately no amount of marketing is ever likely to change that.

Dumbed-down, locked-in devices may be the majority in the future, but I think there will always be room for powerful, flexible tools and there will always be room for innovation and creativity. It's a big world.

[JupiterMoon]

> No doubt they try, but the fact is, those kinds of documents can't override the law. In some places, the law imposes minimum standards on what is acceptable in a consumer (or even business) transaction, and software companies have tried to play the "But the EULA says..." card, and if it's actually tested in court they have sometimes lost. They often rely on people not being aware of their rights and/or not having the time or money or willpower to contest the issue.

On the one hand I hope you are right -- when I pay for software I have certain expectations which are often not met. On the other hand I hope that this doesn't apply to free (as in freedom and beer) projects. If the disclaimer of liability were to become invalid in e.g. the GPL a lot of good people could be put to a lot of trouble.

[belorn]

I have only checked up the Swedish law, but it distinguish between something given for free and when money or services are traded. The consumer protection laws are designed to identify a customer - merchant situation and then regulate it. FLOSS projects should have nothing to worry about here, and the only issue that I have heard is when projects sell CD's.