Neat...and on a somewhat similar note (bash enable -f hacks), some bash FUSE bindings I wrote a few years back: https://github.com/zevweiss/booze
I initially wrote it basically just for giggles, but was rather pleased a few months ago when I realized I could use it for something I actually needed, and it was just the right thing (presenting a mount point that acted as a view of the differences between two rsnapshot-style hard-link trees -- only took a few dozen lines of very simple code).
The problem with this project is that somebody might use it. I argue that if you need to do something in bash that involves more than a sequence of commands, including a simple if statement, then you should switch from bash to a proper scripting language (python, perl, ruby, nodejs, take your pick.)
I disagree. Shell scripts are great for automating system tasks — for sysadminy type stuff, including tasks with high complexity with nested loops and conditionals.
A scripting language like those you mentioned is great for if you need to run your script on systems you don't control, or you need it to be cross platform, or you'd describe what you're doing as creating software rather than automating tasks.
No scripting language can ever integrate with the host system quite as well as shell scripts can. Sure, shell scripts make it easy to shoot yourself in the foot, but then can't you say the same of at least perl and ruby?
I don't really see many good use cases for this library though. By the time you'd use it you should probably move on to something else.
> No scripting language can ever integrate with the host system quite as well as shell scripts can.
What is the basis for this? Shell script is a scripting language (more precisely, a set of scripting languages with similar features.) The difference between shell scripting languages and other scripting languages is that the former are optimized around the need to scale down to a convenient line-by-line way to work with the system in a REPL; while the others may support work in a REPL it is not what they are optimized for.
There's no real reason why other scripting languages can't integrate with the system as well as shell languages.
>> No scripting language can ever integrate with the host system quite as well as shell scripts can.
> What is the basis for this? Shell script is a scripting language (more precisely, a set of scripting languages with similar features.) The difference between shell scripting languages and other scripting languages is that the former are optimized around the need to scale down to a convenient line-by-line way to work with the system in a REPL; while the others may support work in a REPL it is not what they are optimized for.
Disagree. The defining characteristic of shell scripting languages is that they are a shell that can be scripted. What's a shell? It's a program designed to be a layer around the OS, exposing all of the capabilities of the OS to the user in a convenient form.
So the only way a non-shell scripting language can become that powerful is to become a shell scripting language.
>What's a shell? It's a program designed to be a layer around the OS, exposing all of the capabilities of the OS to the user in a convenient form.
I think that's what they were getting at when they said:
>optimized around the need to scale down to a convenient line-by-line way to work with the system in a REPL
The only real difference is optimization for the REPL. Many of the things you might consider part of the experience aren't even shell built-ins, they're utilities maintained separately from your shell. Powershell is a good example of a shell scripting language that has a lot more going on than your traditional shell. Native object pipelines, .net libraries, etc. but the most important thing about it is that it's optimized for the REPL.
In addition to AnimalMuppet's point, shell scripts make no attempt to be cross platform, so you don't get any awkward leaky abstractions when trying to interact with low-level system facilities.
The primitives in shell scripts are the primitives of the operating system. The fundamental building blocks of your language are strings and files and processes, which makes it really convenient to work with strings and files and processes, AKA the operating system.
Well of course you can. Scripting languages aren't useless stunted toys. The point is that if that's what most of your program is doing, you'll have a lot more success using a language where that functionality is first class.
No such example; after all, you can spawn a shell subprocess in any of those.
There's just certain types of tasks where you can more clearly express your intent in a shell script. If, for example, you need to spawn a ton of subprocesses, you can do that in any scripting language, but shell is designed from the ground up to launch subprocesses — it's most basic purpose is to launch programs.
And so while I can't give an example of something that can only be done in a shell script, here's a shell script that I wrote a few weeks ago that would have been a pain in the neck to express in any other language:
#!/bin/sh
cd "$(dirname "$0")"
for test in *.in; do
test="$(basename "$test" .in)"
infile="$test.in"
outfile="$test.out"
output="$(./whofrom "$infile" 2>&1)"
expected="$(cat "$outfile")"
if [ "$output" != "$expected" ]; then
echo "Failed test $test"
echo "Expected: $expected"
echo "Actual: $output"
echo
fi
if ! valgrind --error-exitcode=1 --leak-check=full ./whofrom "$infile" 2>/dev/null >/dev/null; then
echo "Failed test $test"
valgrind -q --leak-check=full ./whofrom "$infile"
echo
fi
done
I'd argue that that's significantly worse at conveying the intent than the shell script version.
The shell script started as a workflow that was executed repeatedly, manually, from the shell, and then automated. Naturally, the shell script resembles very closely they commands typed in at the shell, with some added code to encode the part of the routine that was executed in the user's head.
The python script doesn't look anything like the routine that was previously entered at the shell. That makes it harder to tell at a glance that this script does the same thing.
It it horrible? No absolutely not. If you're working on a team where everyone knows python but not everyone is comfortable with shell scripts, then writing the script in python is the clear best option. But if you're working on a team where everyone is comfortable with both python and shell scripts, the shell script probably wins out.
> Can you give a shell script example of something that perl/python/ruby/nodejs can't do?
Install perl/python/ruby and nodejs -- requiring just the shell to be installed?
Snark aside (it's not only snark - pretty much every system will have something like a posix shell), proper posix portable shell is hard - it's an old gnarly language -- but it's what we've got. And with a bit of discipline and good practices -- it doesn't have to be bad. That said, a lot of real-world shell scripts are bad.
I tend to agree with the overall sentiment; shell isn't a great language. As soon as you start to mix awk (which awk is that, do you need GNU awk?), sed and perhaps a bit of egrep (or grep -E -- are both available? Does it accept only BSD-style parameters?) -- one should consider moving "up".
And for eg: setting up a python package/program -- I'd generally prefer a python script -- hopefully one that handles different file-paths (eg: / vs \ ) and other cross-platform stuff. If you already depend on python, why add dependency on shell?
> Install perl/python/ruby and nodejs -- requiring just the shell to be installed?
I just meant using any one of them, not all of them. And you can pretty much always rely on python and perl being installed.
But my point is that if you're doing something other than a one-off thing, then it belongs to some project and you're probably going to commit that script to that project's codebase. That means it has to be maintained. Do future you and whoever else has to maintain the project a favor and use one of the popular scripting languages that has reasonable syntax and semantics.
Many minimal distributions have only the shell installed - which make it (still) relevant for provisioning/bootstrap etc.
Personally I'd much rather maintain a shell script than a perl script - but that's just because I know shell better. Maybe shell is the first language people would program without learning it (js being the second)?
As a system shell? In theory, perhaps. But migrating a typical Linux/bsd distribution away from having any dependency in the shell would be a major undertaking. While some distributions already ship with only shell/busybox.
There are a couple of weird APIs like unshare(2) where it matters that you do things in the shell itself, not in a process spawned by a shell. (chdir(2) might be an even better example, come to think of it.) I once wrote a bash plugin for playing with unshare(2) specifically.
That said, unshare(1) now supports `-r` with `-U`, which was the thing I needed.
The best use-case I can think of is using bash as a REPL for C libraries. Many times in the past, I've made library calls that either misinterpreted the parameters or the result value. I would have loved the ability to prototype those calls in bash until I understood them enough to call them properly.
My gdb-fu is weak, but don't you have to have a binary that you're debugging to do that? I'm thinking of this as more of an exploratory thing-- poking around the edges of an API until I feel comfortable enough with it to start writing real code.
This blew my mind the first time some one showed me, and is one of the reasons I currently prefer C to other mainstream compiled languages.
Edit: I suppose it is possible to get some version of a repl with C++ (Cling?), Java (Beanshell, Java 9?), C# (Mono, but not currently .Net?). But each of those seems generally a bit harder to get access to than simply calling gdb on a binary with debugging symbols enabled.
C# has REPL in the immediate window when the debugger is running; so it's kind of like using GDB as a REPL for C. Although it is somewhat limited in what you can do.
I initially wrote it basically just for giggles, but was rather pleased a few months ago when I realized I could use it for something I actually needed, and it was just the right thing (presenting a mount point that acted as a view of the differences between two rsnapshot-style hard-link trees -- only took a few dozen lines of very simple code).