[alukima]

I am a female programmer in my mid thirties. I've had careers before tech, I learn new things all the time.

I have the ability to tell the difference when someone is treating me a certain way because I am a newbie or because I am a woman.

It's incredibly insulting that every time this is brought up it's written off as women not understanding basic human interaction.

[Jun8]

"I have the ability to tell the difference ..."

But that's the whole point: it's hard to tell! Of course the classification is easy at the end points (super helpful guy vs total arrogant jerk) but towards the mean the probability of false alarm is much larger. Geeks are a diverse bunch, it may just be that the guy is from another country where interactions are different or it may be just that he's a bit awkward initially because he does not interact with women daily (it happens).

I think the correct approach is to give them the benefit of doubt for a while before labeling them as dudes or whatever. Isn't that the golden rule?

[alukima]

I always give people the benefit of the doubt? Why would you think that women aren't?

I am an awkward person with social anxiety. The idea that women like myself aren't already doing that is part of the absurdity.

[yarou]

If you actively look for something to be offended about, you will find it.

I don't think it stems from ignorance so much as forced, willful ignorance to reinforce your own cognitive biases.

It borders on delusion if you get offended by a friendly, non-threatening gesture in a cooperative environment.

[alukima]

Why would you think that women are looking for something to get offended about?

If I was looking for something to get offended about I wouldn't hide behind male usernames on Stackoverflow, my local user groups, Hackernews (obviously not this account) and Github to avoid conflict. I just want to be a normal part of tech communities, on and offline.

It's absurd that you can write off the large portion of women who say there's a problem because you don't want to examine you're own internal biases.

[yarou]

> Why would you think that women are looking for something to get offended about?

Clearly, not all women are looking for something to be outraged about. However, there is a vocal minority that loudly takes offense at friendly gestures, like in this particular instance. That's what I take issue with.

> If I was looking for something to get offended about I wouldn't hide behind male usernames on Stackoverflow, my local user groups, Hackernews (obviously not this account) and Github to avoid conflict. I just want to be a normal part of tech communities, on and offline.

That's more of a consequence of the erosion of anonymity in the Internet, than you being a woman.

> It's absurd that you can write off the large portion of women who say there's a problem because you don't want to examine you're own internal biases.

Large portion of women according to whom? I'm not writing off anybody either, I'm asking people to critically examine a concept and judge for themselves. I think you ought to think for yourself a little bit more, onee-sama.

[alukima]

>That's more of a consequence of the erosion of anonymity in the Internet, than you being a woman.

No it's a consequence of men seeking out my social profiles on other sites and offering to give me "extra help". Also dick pics.

>I'm asking people to critically examine a concept and judge for themselves

That's exactly what you're being asked to do. Women in the spaces, including myself, aren't looking for things to be angry about, we are looking for acceptance and the ability to enjoy our hobbies/passions and professions in peace. Insisting that everything is just a misunderstood friendly gesture is ridiculous and part of the larger culture that make certain groups of people feel unwelcome in tech.

[comrh]

Could you be any more condescending?

[daenz]

Exactly. What people seem to ignore is that getting along takes work, takes giving people the benefit of the doubt, and it takes leaving your ego at the door. Otherwise you are difficult to be around. When people complain that they are "constantly belittled" in cooperative environments, as stated in the article, with emphasis on constantly, that signals that their negative interpretation is the common factor in all these normal interactions with random people.

[alukima]

>getting along takes work, takes giving people the benefit of the doubt, and it takes leaving your ego at the door.

And once again, why do you think that women haven't already examined this and realized that the interactions they have in certain environments are something beyond needing a little understanding? It's not like women walking into hackerspaces haven't been around nerdy, awkward men before- half of them are nerdy, awkward women.

Implying there's a simple solution that is summed up as "women don't understand!" is ridiculous.

[daenz]

> Implying there's a simple solution that is summed up as "women don't understand!" is ridiculous.

Are you really suggesting that because these women have a hard time integrating in communal environments, that it means all women have problems integrating?

Constantly being irritated with how everyone interacts with you is personality trait, found in any race, gender, orientation, or identity. It's not genetic. I'm not sure why you're saying these people speak for all women.

[rtz12]

It happens to men too though. There are arrogant colleagues I have to stop when they explain things to me I already know. And I didn't even ask for it. I don't know if they just think that everyone besides them is an idiot or if they just like to show off.

On the other side, I am maybe a bit too conscious about these things. Sometimes it is very hard to judge someones skill level. There are a lot of people who somehow manage as programmers without knowing even the most basic things. I find it often hard to explain these basic things to them without seeming like an arrogant showoff.

[alukima]

Women also have to deal with those arrogant colleagues, and then we get to deal with the outright sexist ones and the ones who don't realize they are treating us differently because we're women.

When these things are brought up it's not to say only women have to deal with these things- we get to deal with all the regular bullshit and a little extra.

Like a an extra layer on a bullshit cake.

[lizzard]

Thank you!!! Yes!