[leereeves]

> "I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat."

There's a vast difference in values between us. I'm happy to let you do anything you want to do - even try to convince others that they should do what you want.

You accuse people who don't agree with you of being uneducated automatons who want women to be doormats.

[pron]

> I'm happy to let you do anything you want to do

But the fact is that society really doesn't. So you're happy to let anyone do whatever they want only as long as it doesn't require society to change... And you'll go to great lengths not to learn the facts that would show you you're wrong just so that you could keep things the same.

> You accuse people

I don't accuse anyone of anything. I am stating the obvious fact that anyone who denies that society is actively limiting women's choices is simply ignorant of what we know on the subject. Just like anyone who thinks electrons couldn't possibly behave so strangely is simply uneducated of the facts. Not an automaton, just unfamiliar with the findings. It's not an accusation, either, but a simple statement of fact.

[mark_integerdsv]

Just chiming in here, but it seems that your version of the feminist agenda puts little or no responsibility on women to actually choose.

It's all everyone else's fault.

Life isn't easy and difficult choices are a part of growing up, but, going against the grain brings with it a certain exhilaration. There is satisfaction and growth in proving ones worth for ones self.

I'm not saying it's fair but then again, fairness is pretty rare and that is a truth that touches everyone.

[pron]

> but it seems that your version of the feminist agenda puts little or no responsibility on women to actually choose. It's all everyone else's fault.

No, your statement is just the usual anti-feminist complaint. Women have the same responsibilities as men. That doesn't change in the least bit the fact that society limits their choices much more than it does men, and keeps them away from seats of power.

> There is satisfaction and growth in proving ones worth for ones self.

Absolutely. So would you suggest society starts treating men like it treats women and whites like it treats blacks? Let other people have all the exhilaration for a change.

But seriously, this challenge applies to groups of people, too. So women are now going against the grain and trying to prove their collective worth.

> I'm not saying it's fair but then again, fairness is pretty rare and that is a truth that touches everyone.

Very true. Except that that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight for more fairness. Or are people supposed to just accept the places in society someone else has set for them?

[leereeves]

> a simple statement of fact

But it's not. It's an (incorrect) assumption.

I have, in fact, read the research you're talking about. I'm familiar with the ideas you're advocating.

There's some truth to it. And a lot of problems. And a lot of research that invalidates your conclusions.

But there's an agenda at work, driving people who don't fall in line with that agenda out of academia. And having some familiarity with the ways "science" can be manipulated to suit an agenda, I'm not blinded or silenced when you say "research".

In the physical sciences, if research doesn't agree with theory, the theory is updated.

In the social "sciences", if research doesn't agree with theory, the researcher is discredited and the research ignored.