[mulletbum]

Not defending DanBC, but if he was talking about "The Public" I think that would disclude someone with a small airway because it falls outside the norm. However, if he plans on making the suggestion that "the public" is all fat so they can't sleep, he should back it up with facts.

[DanBC]

I never said "all".

I posted links to government advice from two differnet countries showing links between obesity and sleep problems.

[crpatino]

What facts? This is not a peer reviewed journal, you know.

Here are two distinct facts:

1. I do have eyes and I can see a trend.

* I do not recall seeing less fat people as a child, but I do recall seeing more thin people now.

* I also notice that the fat people I see now seems on average younger than the fat people I recall from my childhood.

* I also notice that the fattest ones - those grossly obese instead of merely overweight - are both larger and more common now than what I recall from childhood (and I was practically raised by an aunt that used to be at the very top of the scale back then, but somehow found herself surpassed in the last 20 years or so).

2. We are told by the media that there are statistics that show an epidemic of overweight. The study pointed out claims that physicians consider overweight as one cause (not the cause) of sleep apnea. We are now told that there is also an epidemic of sleep apnea.

* If A causes B, and we observe an increase of both A and B. It is only logic that the "increase of A" is at least partially responsible for the "increase of B".

* It would make an interesting scientific study to figure out the degrees of correlation between "increase of A" and "increase of B". It would be even better if such study could conclude if such correlation is strong enough to justify calling "increase of A" a driving factor in the "increase of B" or not.

* On the other hand, it is a logical fallacy to claim that no conclusion can be reached regarding the causation/correlation between increases of A and B without "backing it up with facts". I will even claim that it is AntiScientific. If you start with that kind of attitude, you will never be able to form falsifiable hypothesis and therefore will be going through the motions of the scientific method without getting down to the substance.

[logfromblammo]

Obesity is an epidemic in the US.

The observable results are somewhat consistent with a contagious disease. Adenovirus 36 has been shown to cause long-term obesity in lab animals. Gut microbiome comparative studies have shown a marked difference between the intestinal flora of fat people and skinny people.

Additional environmental factors are in play. Car culture in the US reduces the necessity for daily exercise in comparison to walkable city infrastructure elsewhere in the world. The US uses a lot of chemically altered corn syrup in prepared foods in lieu of other sugars. Agricultural practices differ between the US and other nations, particularly with respect to allowable herbicides and pesticides. Real inflation-adjusted disposable income has been declining in the US since about 1970, and poorer people have less healthy diets. Parenting culture has changed since 1970, such that children left to play outside (aka exercise) without direct adult supervision may actually get a parent arrested. People have increased their consumption of sedentary entertainments, and reduced the time that they typically sleep.

The only way to really figure out which factors contribute most to increases in obesity is by objective analysis of unbiased data. That will lead to actual, testable hypotheses, which will in turn lead to solutions that actually work to reduce the public health risks represented by excess adiposity.

Telling every fat person "hey fatty, go lose some fat" may seem like a simple and easy solution on its face, but it really is a lot more complex and difficult than that.

No one is denying that fat people would be healtier if they were skinnier, or that they do want to be less fat. Very few fat people actually want to be fat, and most do take active measures to try to become less fat. But no one apparently knows with certainty why those measures--often the exact same measures employed by skinny people to avoid becoming fat--do not always work.

When people dismiss those discrepancies as "not trying hard enough" rather than "potential research opportunity", that does not advance the human knowledge in this domain that would allow us to better address obesity on a worldwide scale rather than piecemeal.

[crpatino]

Agreed on most accounts. I am obese myself (closer to 'Fat Tony' than to 'Comic Book Guy'), so I know first hand that telling people to "get thin" is less than useless.

What I get pissed off at, is the insistence on some people around here that if you cannot quote scientific articles from memory, then you must be lying and your opinion should be disregarded.

There's lots we don't know about human biology. It does not mean we should go find somewhere to roll and die of whatever ill is affecting us. Somehow we need to make decisions and take actions under incomplete and inaccurate information.

Maybe my grandchildren will benefit from the enhanced understanding you talk about, and I will be grateful for it. But this does not change the fact that I need to address my own problem today.

[DanBC]

Just for clarity: I did say that losing weight doesn't appear to be easy.

I agree that there's a bunch of gut flora / genetic / etc stuff going on, and that society makes weight loss really hard.

[CyberpunkDad]

As a lifetime fat person the best decision I made was to go on a paleo diet. Essentially: No grains, no legumes, no processed food, no dairy. Limit intake to : grass fed meat (when possible), veggies, some select nuts, limited fruit.

That in combination with stopping drinking, eliminating pop and just adding some mild walking has made a huge impact. I don't worry about portion size, counting calories etc.

If you are like me, you might want to check paleo out.

[modoc]

Hard to know if your success is driven by paleo, or by cutting out booze and soda and adding in walking, or if you're just taking less calories than before.

Whatever works for you is great, but I just hear so many people raving about diet X, when at the same time they started it, they also cut out candy/soda/booze and starting hitting the gym...

[logfromblammo]

As I understand it, the only beverage allowed on paleo is water, and the only sweets allowed are whole fruits and limited quantities of honey.

It is a matter for some debate among paleo advocates as to whether exercising in a gym is an adequate simulation of hunter-gatherer activity. And that's about when I start tuning out. Then I get to the part about donating blood to account for recoverable injuries, and I switch off. It's a diet/lifestyle, not a cosplay.

The success is driven by having a plan and maintaining the individual motivation to carry it out.