[ptaipale]

"Extremely" is certainly a hyperbole. You can point out accountability problems in the EU governance system, which is based on a commonwealth of independent states tied together by the Treaty of Maastricht, and that some people want to convert into a federal USE (which I oppose), but "extremely undemocratic"? Bah.

[fooballs]

No one voted for the Maastricht treaty. It was steamrolled through shrouded in secrecy.

Some people? Some people want to convert into a federal USE? It's there in black and white. Crystal clear. "Ever closer union".

You can oppose it all you like, but the people behind the project won't care one bit. The end game is a united states of Europe, with a single army, single parliament, abolition of individual state parliaments etc etc

Then when people have forgotten they'll just rename it United states of Germany. You can understand why those who don't win from a United states of Europe (Everyone apart from Germany), would associate it with Nazis.

[ptaipale]

At least I voted for Maastricht treaty (as a part of a referendum for joining the EU). In other countries, it was approved by the parliament whose job it generally is to approve of laws and international treaties.

[lucd]

France voted against the european constitution (referendum), only to see it instated through Lisbonne treaty, this time without referendum.. So much for EU democratic values..

[ptaipale]

The constitution treaty (TCE) was rejected, and the Lisbon treaty is not the same. Lisbon treaty did change the previous treaties of Rome and Maastricht, but again, saying "only to see it [TCE] instated through Lisbonne treaty" is disingenious.

The Lisbon treaty does not cover the same things as the TCE did, only a subset of which there was consensus.

[antientropic]

France is still a democracy, and the democratically elected French parliament had the right to vote against the Lisbon treaty. Which they didn't.

[fooballs]

For all we know they were bribed to make it go through. There is absolutely no accountability or democracy in the EU.

[ptaipale]

It is all right to point out that there are problems in accountability or democracy in the EU, but that "absolutely no" is so manifestly untrue that it takes away credibility from anything you say.

[rorykoehler]

In Ireland we voted on Lisbon until we got the right result. Makes a mockery of democracy.

[realityking]

Ignoring the fact that the question of a referendum for european treaties is one to be had at the national level, as each country can decide that for itself, the statement "No one voted for the Maastricht treaty." is demonstrably false as both the French and the Danish people did vote for it.

It's ok to have a difference of opinion, but please keep your facts straight.