[j_baker]

Yeah, but you know what? The cost of living has also skyrocketed dramatically in Silicon Valley. I mean, you make it sound like engineers here are on a gravy train where we spend 3 months learning a language and can suddenly move to San Francisco where we just let the money roll in. The truth is it costs a lot to live in the Bay Area these days, and that means that if companies want people to move here they need to pony up and pay a good salary.

That $130k starting salary you mention is enough for a person to afford a studio in the Tenderloin these days?

[orthoganol]

Certainly one of the more absurd comment I've read on HN.

3 month bootcamp attendees shouldn't make more than $75k. They are junior as hell, and add little if not negative value for a long stretch of time. Even $75k is a reflection of the crazy job market, not their actual value.

Your COL & salary analysis for SF is incredibly off. Yeah you'll probably have to sacrifice the excesses of your upper middle class SF lifestyle (boo hoo...). You can easily live on $75/k year in a $1600/mo studio in the Tenderloin, or on the flip side you can have a $1600/mo shared apartment in the Marina. You can't do that if you have a family, (but if you do, that's on you for switching to programming while needing to support a family).

Crappy programmer entitlement is just so off the charts (and disjointed from reality) it's a little frustrating.

[j_baker]

So what you're saying is that it's "crappy programmer entitlement" to:

* Expect to earn the median income

* Expect to have a decent lifestyle.

* Expect to be able to have a family

Sounds like crappy employer entitlement to me.

[orthoganol]

Well yeah... it's completely delusional to think a 3 month developer should earn the median income for programmers.

It's also unfair to your family to decide to support them as a completely inexperienced developer. Have some savings for a couple years until you can add value.

I don't know what Ivy League school you went to, but for relatively normal people an excellent lifestyle can be had on $75/k in SF. An upper middle class, eat out every night, Tahoe weekends lifestyle is not going to happen on $75/k in SF, especially if you want savings. But that's ridiculous to expect that a no-skill/ no-value newbie should get that. You still have to earn your salary.

[jazzyk]

An upper middle class lifestyle is not going to happen on $180K in SF either - if you are senior level, but have a family and want to have an adequate place to live.

Median home price just hit $1M. We are talking _median_, not a mansion.

http://www.sfgate.com/business/networth/article/1-million-ci...

Wake me up when senior people in software can reach compensation levels of doctors and other professionals ($300-400K).

[j_baker]

> Well yeah... it's completely delusional to think a 3 month developer should earn the median income for programmers.

$75k is not the median income for programmers. $75k is the median income for anyone in SF. Which is exactly my point. To expect engineers to live in SF, you have to be willing to pay exorbitant salaries just to break even. If you want to pay a good salary, you pretty much have to pay 6 figures. Don't like it? Move to Cleveland or Detroit. I'm pretty sure $75k would be considered a great salary there. Just don't complain that developers cost too much and then require them to live somewhere with such a high cost of living.

[simoncion]

Does your definition of "excellent SF lifestyle" require a roommate?

If it does not, then $75k/year gross will be cutting it pretty close. You'll also be required to have next to no savings.

[throwaway342526]

$1600/mo can get you your own 2br in San Leandro in a safe (though not prestigious) neighborhood.

The commute on BART into SF is about 45 minutes.

[LoSboccacc]

so what it gets you is being modern proletariat?

[gkoberger]

Rent is so high because salaries are so high.

[enraged_camel]

Um, no. It's very well-documented that the reason rent is high is because the locals are strongly resisting the development of new properties. The resulting supply shortage, combined with overwhelming demand, makes property prices skyrocket. Therefore, companies end up having to offer high salaries to compensate.

[digisign]

Rent is high because there is not enough housing.

[maerF0x0]

Not enough housing because high salaries draw more workers.

[simoncion]

o-O

Not enough housing because next to no housing is being built, let alone construction anywhere near the rate required to meet demand.

Honestly, $120->150k gross (pessimistically ~$72->90k post-tax) doesn't go all that far when you're paying anywhere from $24,000 [if you're lucky] to $48,000 (or more) per year in rent.