[kisstheblade]

Seems to me the article is fighting some kind of giant strawman. I myself haven't experiences this kind of attitude. I really don't get what the point is, that some people have ego problems and hold pissing contests to see who is the most "awesome programmer"? Well that's a different thing, kind of "who's the best".

Well for sure if you ask people in an office what their job is then I don't think that a banker who creates complex spreadsheets calls himself a programmer per se... Even though he for sure programs a computer.

I would maybe categorize people in two categories, those who enjoy programming for itself (learning different languages and technologies) and those who use it to get some specific task done. This of course has nothing to do with being a "true programmer" :)

[jacquesm]

It's a thing I keep running into over and over again. I'm really happy that you haven't and that for you personally this is not an issue. Unfortunately your sample of '1' may not be representative.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/09/is-it-...

http://blog.codinghorror.com/please-dont-learn-to-code/

http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/163631/has-no...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5302157

And many many more besides.

I wished it was a strawman, then I could have simply not written the article.

[tezza]

Well I'll add my sample size to make it a sample of 2.

I don't really see people being told they cannot code. I see them being encouraged and encouraged... And they give up.

Because coding longer term often is a Temperament thing. The person learning.has to persevere banging their head against a brick wall ( their own skill, the lack of feedback from computers ) day in and day out.

That's not for everybody.

I am bemused that coding has such a mystique when in reality coding is something akin to metalwork combined with plumbing. Not everyone wants to be a plumber either, but most people could do a reasonable job if given a crash course and some context to use it in

[teacup50]

I'll be your non-strawman.

Consider other fields:

- Is everyone suited to be a mathematician?

- What about a building engineer?

- An electrical engineer?

None of these things are magic. None of these things are something someone can't learn "a little" about.

And yet, like programming, all of these require a great deal of effort to master any degree of proficiency; this 1) takes individual dedication, and 2) is undermined for individuals when they're told repeatedly and incorrectly that being a "programmer" is a label, and that it's easy.

[keithpeter]

Are you describing jobs or activities?

As an example of what I mean, the word 'mathematician' usually refers to someone who works as an academic in a University department and teaches advanced mathematics and who contributes research. This is hard, requires considerable focus and dedication.

Most people in societies with good educational systems can do mental arithmetic, and a majority could learn to apply mathematical results to situations e.g. at work if they needed to. Some countries have invented a special words for this latter kind of maths use - 'numeracy' and 'functional skills' are in use in the UK.

So again the word 'programmer' or its various synonyms covers your case - a 'programmer' helps to produce complex software as part of a team (usually) and spends most of their time on that.

Other people may do tasks that look a bit like the easier bits of programming as a smaller part of their job. OA mentions complex spreadsheets (and wow can they get complex but that is often part of the problem) and I'd go so far as to include a bit of bash, and perhaps a few lines of python to help in administration tasks.

Perhaps it is the last activity that we need a word for?

[jacquesm]

It definitely isn't 'easy'. It's probably the hardest skill I've mastered to any degree.

[teacup50]

I'm not sure anyone has mastered it; ~50 years in, we've all just barely scratched the surface.

[cblock811]

I absolutely ran into it when teaching myself programming, but it really isn't specific to programmers. I had conversations go boil down to:

Me: "I'm learning programming" Programmer: "Good luck with that (sarcasm)"

These people were dicks. I met WAY more positive and accepting people in tech during my transition, but there is still an elitist group that thinks it is special. This mentality exists everywhere, but tech seems to be special. Developers are in demand, many people don't fully understand what we do, and even when you "get your foot in the door" people..including folks on HN btw.. throw out things like "I hate pretend programmers".

[Dylan16807]

>Me: "I'm learning programming" Programmer: "Good luck with that (sarcasm)"

If they're actually sarcastic, they're dicks, but a slightly skeptical "good luck with that" is a pretty appropriate response for someone that has just started at a major task. Same thing if you tell me you're going to write a novel; I encourage you, but I don't assume you will automatically make it.

>throw out things like "I hate pretend programmers".

Does pretend programmer mean someone that's learning or someone that lies about what they've already learned? I've only seen derision toward the latter, someone that claims to be an experienced coder but can't code the simplest of functions.

[kisstheblade]

Well dicks are everywhere. Like the problem with how females are treated "in tech", well big news, women are treated badly in all male dominated fields (and pretty much elsewhere also). You think they have it easy working on a factory floor?

But in tech these things are more in the open what with our hacker news and blogs etc, and because most of people in this field actually are good people and care about this stuff and want to deal with the issues!

I myself haven't met any "elitist programmers", just regular joes (and janes!) doing their job. On the other hand I also don't operate in SF in some tech bubble i've been hearing about :)

/end rant, sorry :)

[klibertp]

> Me: "I'm learning programming" Programmer: "Good luck with that (sarcasm)"

Try to look at this from the programmer's point of view for a moment. Programming is a vast subject, where you're going to be constantly learning for as long as you program. It's impossible to learn programming entirely: we still don't know how to program to get the best results, we're continuously defining the field as we go on. And that's even before you take Computer Science into account!

Granted, being a dick is not a good thing, but after a while it's also hard to be enthusiastic about people who tell you they're going to learn programming. Especially if they have no idea yet about how programming is like in the "real world". Most of them are going to - in my experience - run away screaming when they see the reality of programming. And that's even before talking about how programming jobs look like.

Personally I try my best not to be sarcastic when talking to beginners, but I do try to warn them that it may be harder than they think.

[coldtea]

>Seems to me the article is fighting some kind of giant strawman. I myself haven't experiences this kind of attitude.

For real? Because it shows up in HN all the time.

E.g. for what he writes:

>The IT world is rife with this ‘no true programmer’ nonsense, the ‘real’ programmers are the ones that have mastered ‘x’ (insert name of arcane and difficult to use programming language here), the rest is still stuck on ‘y’ (insert accessible and easy to use language here). The latter of course aren’t real programmers, if they were then they would get it.

How's that not an example of "the Blub" reasoning? http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

[fche]

Clearly a True Programmer would believe what the original poster says. You're not a True Programmer.